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Continuation of my idea.

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Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:34 pm PostPost subject: Continuation of my idea.
WhiteLite
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I've been folowing up some of the ideas I've had previously and have come up with a prototype that may be OU but kind of need some input or at least have the idea tested on a test rig of sorts. I don't have a 3D modeling program to use so had to resort to using a program that lets you build lego peices to demonstrate my idea.







The pink and blue cogs represent magnets while the large middle cog is the disk that the blue rotor magnets are attached to. Bear in mind that they are not actuall cogs, just what I used to represent disk magnets. The top pink magnets have north facing down while the bottom pink magnets have north facing up, (so all have north facing into the device).

The blue rotor magnets are perpendicular to the pink stator magnets. The blue rotor magnets have north all facing in the same direction, (clockwise or anti-clockwise; can't remember which). Basically, the central grey disk with the blue magnets attached can rotate and/or move up and down on the central spindle. It takes a push to move the disk up and then the disk will kick towards the next magnet, moving 60 degrees or a sixth of a turn say clockwise. When the disk is moved back down it kicks again in the same direction by the same amount.

How do I know it moves like this? Because I made one. Smile Here's a video of it but bear in mind that it is extremely crude, although it gives the basic idea of how it moves.

http://fizzx.com/images/testdevice.mpg <<<Click Here!

This could be the device that Steorn said was 130% efficient. Given the crudity of the set-up it is difficult to tell if the rotational kick is stronger than the sideways movement of the spindle but it does feel quite strong. Obviously if it is OU then you would need someway of storing the rotation kick and redirect it back into the sideways movement of the spindle to get it to move by itself.

If anyone feels like making a more proffesional version of this device then I would be interested in seeing it. Also I have no test rig to determine if it is OU but then Avid seems to have the engineering skills and materials to make this happen.
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Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:55 pm PostPost subject:
avid_engineer
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Hey WhiteLite,

Like the idea, it's always easier to convey ideas with pics, better yet video Smile nice job. I would be interested to see what happens when you position the rotor in the centre, between the two stators. Then apply small horizontal movements to get an idea of the threshold required to rotate the arm.

In the video you've posted i noticed that when you push the arm to one end, there is kind of a vibrating effect before the rotor stops moving. This suggests to me that energy would be wasted, so perhaps there is an optimum amount of horizontal movement. Just enough to turn the rotor, but also not enough to be wastefull.

Edit:

One other point... the rig design im working with currently has no capability for complex movement like this. So i will try and consider it this week, i think it's achievable but once again will require an innovative rotor mount!
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Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:02 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Hi Avid. Well spotted, you don't have to move the spindle all the way to get a kick but the kick is less powerfull if you don't move the spindle as far but then the energy required to move the spindle is less too. That indicates that the input/output energy ratio is identical whatever amount of energy you put into it. The fact that the rotor wobbles os much indicates how powerful the kick is, it's almost enough to move out of the cog!

You should build one and try it out. I suspect you would make a better job of it than my lego and blu-tack effort. It's also interesting to see how the magnets move given the energy you put into it.
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Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:13 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Also I should add that you don't have to apply sideways force all the way. At first when you push you have to overcome the attraction of the magnets near each other but when you get to the middle it pulls itself to the other side and it rotates by 60 degrees. This could be Over Unity!
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Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:31 pm PostPost subject:
avid_engineer
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Hmm yeah, to be honest you've already done more than i have with your model. If i still had any Lego in the house i'd have probably done the same thing by now lol.

NdFeb's continually amaze me with the force they can produce. Those larger magnets i have (pictured in the simple test rig thread) are particularly strong. One thing i found interesting about them is that although they are polarised at the cylinder top and bottom, there appears to be points around the cylinder where the field is stronger.

A simple expriment which intrigued me was to stick 3 cylinders around a central magnet so effectively you end up with a stator magnet (middle) and a three part rotor. If you try and rotate the rotor magnets around you get an odd vibrating effect, similar to what we see in your video. Another idea i would like to test on the rig to reduce friction!

Im trying to take in suggestions for the test rig and will try to make it as versatile as possible to test ideas like these whilst keeping materials cost and time to engineer down to a minimum. I am certainly no master engineer, ill do my best though.

Have you tried picturing two arms interacting at all?
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Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:46 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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avid_engineer wrote:
Have you tried picturing two arms interacting at all?


Hmmm, not sure what you mean? Do you mean just using two rotor magnets instead of three? It doesn't seem to do anything interesting in the setup I mentioned above.
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Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:54 pm PostPost subject:
avid_engineer
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I was just comparing your idea to Steorns test rig where they have two arms, usually at 90 degrees to eachother. In your design you have a single mechanical arm and i was wondering if you had pictured a pair interacting with one another or how that might work?
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Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:00 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Oh I see. I haven't yet but will give it some thought. You could connect my device to Steorns test rig. The central spindle moves back and forth as well as rotates. One test arm would measure the back and forth motion while one arm would measure the rotation.
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Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:56 pm PostPost subject:
babcat
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Whitelite,

Great work! I like the idea and like the prototype you made. We are having an exciting few days. We have your prototype device, now we have Crank confirming Steorn's claims, and hopefully tommorow the final two portions of the flash presentation will be posted.

I'm really hyped up right now, but trying my best to stay calm and collected.

I really, really need to get some neodymium magnets.
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Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:30 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Lol babcat, exciting indeed! Best ease off on the coffee or you might be jumping through the roof. Smile I am considering building another identical device and seeing if I can hook the two together. If it works and it moves on its own then OU will have been proved. Cool
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Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:08 am PostPost subject:
drichardson
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Hi Whitelight,

Anything new with this project?
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Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:30 am PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Hi drichardson,

Kind of. I found out that the pink magnets in the diagram above don't have to be vertical. You can also have them pointing inwards so you can stick them on the outside of a cylinder and still get the effect going. This makes it much easier to mount the magnets and play around with many more configurations.

One of the problems I have is my magnets are a bit too powerful and if I want to mount them really close together I can't as the blu-tack isn't strong enough to hold them. Anyway, I'll be doing further experiments today and try and create a drawing of the path the rotor magnets are taking.
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Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:20 am PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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In case anyone is interested here is another prototype device I made. Pretty crude but it produces an interested movement none the less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2IXuxIJU-A
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Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:55 pm PostPost subject:
babcat
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I like your new device Whitelite. It's very unique.

I just can't help but say again that we are going to be in for an amazing experience when validation day occurs. We are going to have EVERYTHING we want! Yes, I mean EVERYTHING. Smile
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:59 am PostPost subject:
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Your prototype is just similar to the one at: http://www.kundelmotor.com/

The prototype on videos converts linear motion to rotational.
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:30 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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resonatrix wrote:
Your prototype is just similar to the one at: http://www.kundelmotor.com/

The prototype on videos converts linear motion to rotational.


Hi there, yeah when I posted my second device on youtube a guy called Craigy mentioned that too. The Kundel motor looks veryinteresting to me as with my device I couldn't figure out how to conect 2 of them together so the input would be connected to the output. With the Kundel engine both the rotors and the stators move so the input is a piston, (back and forth), action and the output is rotational. Using that method it should be easy to connect input to output. I'll have to see if I can make one myself...
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Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:22 am PostPost subject:
babcat
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The concept of the Kundel motor is very interesting. Did you see the most basic video at

http://kundelmotor.com/flash_video/StephenKundelMotor.wmv

It's very, very interesting.
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Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:58 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Hi babcat. Yeah I saw the older version of the Kundel motor from a link on the guys site. Basically it works like my device but where I have the top and bottom stator magnets reppelling and offset from each other he has them attracting and facing each other, (which I experimented with a few weks ago). The problem I had with my device was that the stators don't move and that the rotor magnets move in a series of 90 degree curves connected to make a ring.



Given the motion of the magnet it seemed to me that it would be hard to connect two devices so that the output would connect to the input of another device but when I saw the Kundel motor I saw that he had made it so both the rotor and the stators moved simplifying the movement of both of them. Basicaly with his design you could easily connect the reciprical movement of one of his devices to the rotational movement of the other. If it is OU it would self sustain.

All normal motors I am aware of utilise magnets and electromagnets that have their poles facing each other. All the ideas I am working on have the rotor and stator magnets at right angles to each other. I'm not sure if my device or the Kundel motor have OU properties but I needed to look at something different that Steorn may have hit upon but everyone else had missed. Stephen Kundel thought that his motor may be OU because when a specific reciprical energy is inputed it continues to accelerate up to a certain point. This may not be OU though as I think the spinning stator magnets take a while to synchronise with the reciprical movement of the rotor magnets.

I guess I will have to look into this further...
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:20 am PostPost subject:
babcat
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I will be looking forward to hearing about your future experiments!
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