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Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:26 pm PostPost subject: A carefull look at available images
avid_engineer
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Hey all,

After re-reading a lot of posts on here, and reading a recent post by clovis in the "riding the wave" thread, i have decided to have another close look at all available images of the current Steorn tech.

It occurred to me that in some of the better pictures the two arms are completely mechanically separated (or so it would appear). Something else too... pay attention to what we think are stepper motors. Two things.

1. They are the only visible linkage between the two arms.
2. Check out the gear ratio on those things.

Not sure what is achievable by using this gearing... its a shame there is not a more detailed picture, perhaps from the other side. I also have to keep reminding myself Sean said energy unity is achieved with 1 arm.

Here are links to pics i have compiled.

Prototype...

Large Pic: http://www.steorn.net/images/sean5_large.jpg



Example test data rig...




Ready to run...





Incarnation of the device for interview...

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Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:43 pm PostPost subject:
avid_engineer
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Some other things which may be important... one arm always seems to have a larger wheel. Perhaps these are flywheels? the pics under the 'ready to run' part of the list above seem to have a bulky wheel on the vertical arm. I can see no other purpose than a flywheel for this.

Also, in the Sean interview, available on the Sky news site i think. Try doing a time lapse and check out the brass weight on the horizontal arm. It does about 1 full rotation in 6:55... almost 7 minutes as apposed to other short footage of the working device where you can easily see the weight rotating. I believe this is probably what Sean would call normal operating speed, as he said he was asked by the crew to speed it up Smile

Such short movements... im confused again Rolling Eyes
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:18 am PostPost subject:
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Avid,

Great work getting those images!

First of all, I need some help figuring out which part actually is the OU rotor/stator thingy. I'm just a little confused.

Secondly, this is the testing version and not designed as a product. It's only purpose if for carefully testing the effect. They start it and stop it over and over again all the way around the cycle. From what I understand, they do this not because the fully working device would work in a stop go stop go fasion, but because they are testing how much force is gained or lost at each spot in the cycle.

For example, it might stop and start a hundred times. But that would just be tiny parts of the full cycle. They are making it stop and start for testing purposes from what I understand.

Could you help me visualize which part of the device is actually the OU part?
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:32 pm PostPost subject:
avid_engineer
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Well i dont think anyone is actually sure which part is OU. What we do know now is how Steorn are testing it, and they have been quite specific on their test setup. I have outlined in the following image which parts i can identify, i may not be 100% correct but its a start and maybe someone else can contribute?

Speculation...

The area in red is really the only unknown, and i would guess that it must contain the magentic configuration on a reasonably small scale. Perhaps the gearing simply increases the torque output of the magnetic motor (inside) whilst lowering the RPM so that torque can be measured effectively.

I doubt very much that the arm of a motor, driven solely by permanent magnets could have enough torque to drive one of those arms, not on that scale. Even a small electric motor would suffer without gearing.

Think about it, each test arm is designed only to lift weight, apply friction and measure results. The black boxes with the larger gear wheel are driving those test arms. These are linked to the smaller gear which is possibly connected to the arm of the magnetic motor. Somewhere along the line there maybe more incremental gear ratios dropping RPM and increasing torque, these ratios are taken into consideration when measuring the effect.

I beleive that the two permanent magnet motor's maybe connected to eachother via coils that can be used to drive the motor through its energy loss stage, or to generate power during its energy gain stage. Each motor sustains the other in this way. Notice there is NO mechanical connection between the two arms in any image i have seen... as far as i can tell anyway.

I firmly believe that 1 increment of the test arm (very small) is the result of 1 full cycle of the mag motor which as been gear down significantly... and the point of having external gears with a belt is to make life easier when testing different torque outputs and speeds.

Large image here: http://www.fictionary.co.uk/images/speculation.jpg

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Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:21 pm PostPost subject:
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Thanks for the information Avid!

That makes sense to me, because with the test rig they are not trying to generate a lot of power, but simply test the effect.

From that circled unknown area it almost looks like there is a a long rectangular magnet as the rotor, one large curved magnet partially wrapping around it, and are those two small silver objects actually two small neodymiums?
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:49 pm PostPost subject:
avid_engineer
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Actually, im pretty sure everything detailed in that picture is related to testing the mag motor not actually producing OU. Therefore the actual OU tech itself could be implemented in one of the folowing ways...

1. As i said before, there are two magnetic motors, each capable of energy unity. One is located in the white box, top right of the circled area, which turns gears attached to its measurement arm. It is also wired to the other motor, black, almost center of the circle. This is to transfer small amounts of energy back and forth between arms to maintain OU. This seems coherent to what Sean has explained, but why have identical motors in different casing one branded and one not. Also if each arm is only capable of energy unity transferring energy via copper wire would result in an incomplete cycle.

2. Perhaps the two motors are both located in the white box. The work together mechanically or electrically, hidden from view. Combined they generate the energy to turn the gears on the attached measurement arm. The other black box is a motor, it is geared in the same way and used to turn the other arm either as a comparison of known output or it is powered from the OU motor as another test output.

Does anyone have any other suggestions ?

Keep in mind, they started with micro-wind generators, so it is possible the actual motors could be pretty small. Im also pretty sure all the magnetic OU tech is hidden from view for two reasons. One is that Sean said it is shielded to prevent interference from other sources of magnetism. The other reason is that i doubt the first public picture of their device would include a shot of the actual magnetic configuration.
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:16 pm PostPost subject:
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I would think that the OU device is in the white box.

Basically, Sean has explained the technology as utilizing the "effect" of magnetic fields interacting. He has said it's about having a magnetic field configuration and when you travel around that field with another magnet you gain energy. I would think that both sets of magnets would be close enough so that their magnetic fields would be interacting. At the moment, I can think of two possibilities. There could be others, but I think the two sets of magnets at some point must interact with each other.

1) The two magnets or sets of magnets are configured in a typical setup with a rotor and stator.

2) The two magnets or sets of magnets are each mounted on a different wheel or device but mechanically brought together at some point in the cycle. This would mean two wheels or moving parts. One for each set of magnetic fields.

Also, magnets have all kinds of effects that are not yet fully understood. Additionally, there are probably additional effects we have not even discovered. I think this discovery has something to do with some property of magnets or certain shapes/sizes/ratio/positions of magnets and their flux. Probably, when they interact with one another.

I can't wait until they finish the additional parts of the flash presentation.
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:10 pm PostPost subject:
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Hey guys, some interesting observations there. My personal take on the pictures, especially the top one with Sean, is that the OU device is not actually there. It looks to me like they are just displaying the test equipment and I'm pretty sure Sean confirmed that. The bits in the top left of the top picture just looks like the stepper motor assembly.

From what I can tell the stepper motors are just used to move the permanent magnet that would be inside the device around its path and then they use the torque sensors to determine which way the magnet is being pushed or pulled and the strength of that force. That way they can accurately determine the output of the device and which parts of the movement are responsible for the OU effect.
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Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:44 pm PostPost subject:
avid_engineer
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Thanks for the input WhiteLite. That's interesting.

So what you are saying is that the magnetic configuration could be located inside the black box beneath the stepper motor. The stepper motor would be used to increment the rotor very slowly to analyse rotor torque? Hope i havn't misunderstood.

This makes sense but poses another question. If the rig is only testing the torque stages of the rotors and not built to produce OU then why have two arms?

When looking at that picture i try to keep two things in mind as stated by Sean.... a single arm produces energy unity, and the device requires two arms to produce OU. I guess what im trying to do here is make an educated guess on how the arms are cooperating Smile
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:01 am PostPost subject:
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Actually I was thinking the OU device would be attatched to the central vertical aluminium column with different ends of the device connected to the aluminium disks.
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:08 pm PostPost subject: Re: A carefull look at available images
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[quote="avid_engineer"]Hey all,

After re-reading a lot of posts on here, and reading a recent post by clovis in the "riding the wave" thread, i have decided to have another close look at all available images of the current Steorn tech.

It occurred to me that in some of the better pictures the two arms are completely mechanically separated (or so it would appear). Something else too... pay attention to what we think are stepper motors. Two things.

1. They are the only visible linkage between the two arms.
2. Check out the gear ratio on those things.

Not sure what is achievable by using this gearing... its a shame there is not a more detailed picture, perhaps from the other side. I also have to keep reminding myself Sean said energy unity is achieved with 1 arm.

Here are links to pics i have compiled.

[b]Prototype...[/b]

Large Pic: [url]http://www.steorn.net/images/sean5_large.jpg[/url]

[img]http://www.steorn.net/images/sean5_small.jpg[/img]

[b]Example test data rig...[/b]

[img]http://www.fictionary.co.uk/images/arm1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.fictionary.co.uk/images/arm2_.jpg[/img]

[b]Ready to run...[/b]

[img]http://www.fictionary.co.uk/images/running1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.fictionary.co.uk/images/running2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.fictionary.co.uk/images/running4.jpg[/img]

[b]Incarnation of the device for interview...[/b]

[img]http://www.fictionary.co.uk/images/interview_dev.jpg[/img][/quote]

Hi avid_engineer,
Looking at the pics above, specifically 4,5 and 7, where did they come from? do you have any url refs for 4,5 and 7?
Ready to run first and second and
Incarnation of the device for interview...

Thanks much for posting them.
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:22 pm PostPost subject:
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[quote="avid_engineer"]Well i dont think anyone is actually sure which part is OU. What we do know now is how Steorn are testing it, and they have been quite specific on their test setup. I have outlined in the following image which parts i can identify, i may not be 100% correct but its a start and maybe someone else can contribute?

Speculation...

The area in red is really the only unknown, and i would guess that it must contain the magentic configuration on a reasonably small scale. Perhaps the gearing simply increases the torque output of the magnetic motor (inside) whilst lowering the RPM so that torque can be measured effectively.

I doubt very much that the arm of a motor, driven solely by permanent magnets could have enough torque to drive one of those arms, not on that scale. Even a small electric motor would suffer without gearing.

Think about it, each test arm is designed only to lift weight, apply friction and measure results. The black boxes with the larger gear wheel are driving those test arms. These are linked to the smaller gear which is possibly connected to the arm of the magnetic motor. Somewhere along the line there maybe more incremental gear ratios dropping RPM and increasing torque, these ratios are taken into consideration when measuring the effect.

I beleive that the two permanent magnet motor's maybe connected to eachother via coils that can be used to drive the motor through its energy loss stage, or to generate power during its energy gain stage. Each motor sustains the other in this way. Notice there is NO mechanical connection between the two arms in any image i have seen... as far as i can tell anyway.

I firmly believe that 1 increment of the test arm (very small) is the result of 1 full cycle of the mag motor which as been gear down significantly... and the point of having external gears with a belt is to make life easier when testing different torque outputs and speeds.

[b]Large image here:[/b] [url]http://www.fictionary.co.uk/images/speculation.jpg[/url]

[img]http://www.fictionary.co.uk/images/speculation_.jpg[/img][/quote]

Looking at the pic, and the available info on the microstepper/gear reduction module provide by Steorn, I'd venture to say that the area circled in red, includes the microstepper and the gear reduction belt driven. It's most likely the driver for the angular displacements used for the test set up as noted so far. (left side inside that red circle)

The right side appears similar to the test setup but greater is size.
The belt pulley arrangement (pulleys are on the horizontal plane) seems also similar to a stepper diver gear reduction combination, with possibly a control/feedback module (small green led light on it shown) attached in the back of it. The module is seen on this unit due to the viewing angle of the camera.
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:41 pm PostPost subject:
clovis ray20
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a e
and fellow forum members here is one of my ideas .
not a very good drawing but maybe you will be able to understand how it might work .
i know----- it needs some tweeking .



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Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:56 pm PostPost subject:
avid_engineer
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DaveHoward_,

See the interview on sky news which can be found here...

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-steorn_interview,00.html

I simply frame grabbed a few shots of the device running. The final image in that list is also of a running prototype during the same footage.

clovis,

Is your idea speculating on the Steorn tech or something new? I'm not sure if cam friction could be overcome by the magentic effects.

When i started sketching ideas, of my first was to utilise two springs to sandwich a 10mmx10mm cylindrical magnet. One end had a short compression spring and the other used a long extension spring. If you have ever messed around with an extention spring you will immediately recognise that if pressure is applied to both ends it forms a rigid structure but the slightest touch in between the two ends will cause it to bend. It then promptly returns to its normal position when pressure is released. I was going to use this priciple with a cam to actuate the magnet but gave up on the idea because it seemed like cams would produce too much friction, not to mention that the springs would wear and make the whole thing a little complex Smile

Any thoughts on overcoming friction? I would be keen to find out if using a specially crafted magnetic field with two bumps would be more efficient. i.e. a ring of say 12 magnets, with number 6 and 12 raised slightly to produce a cam effect when rotated.
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Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:42 am PostPost subject:
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magnet cam. good idea
some of the tweeking that i mentioned . thanks I'll keep working on it.

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Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:09 pm PostPost subject:
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Hi avid_engineer
Thanks nice work then in clipping them from the video.

the one marked as running1 http://www.fictionary.co.uk/images/running1.jpg
Is pretty interesting. It shows 2 distinct planes if rotation perpendicular to each other. It may also be related to this http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6867514.pdf and/or Steorn is testing similar configurations and principle effects.
Some thoughts also on the Steorn forum
http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=25283&page=1#Item_0

Thanks again.
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Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:15 pm PostPost subject:
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This is why I hope Steorn will finish up their flash presentations soon. We need more information. Hopefully their flash presentation could explain some of this.
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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:01 pm PostPost subject:
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To be fair I suspect the final test results of their OU device will help reveal the magnetic configuration they are using. Perhaps that is why the flash presentations are taking so long?
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Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:20 pm PostPost subject:
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WhiteLite,

This is my opinion of what's happening with the Flash Presentation. To give us a good over view of the testing methods they would be giving us too much information about the magnetic effect. But if they don't give us a certain ammount of information then the presentation is pretty much worthless.

A company in their position HAS to be paranoid. Even if they don't spell out the positions of the magnets knowing basically how the device works might give away a little too much information. In my opinion, in addition to them being VERY busy one obvious reason for the delay could be that they can't decide on how much information to give.

I'm just hoping that in a short period of time things become safe enough in their opinion that they can release the full presentation. For example, maybe there are still a few critical patents they are about to apply for. Once they reach a certain point maybe they will give us the full presentation.
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Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:06 am PostPost subject:
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[edit: updated the links to the Steorn forum comments so that they now point directly at the comment, instead of at the page; removed the info about the dynamic test rig due to conflicting references]
Hello, I've been reading this forum since it was set up, and I thought it may be useful to update the image of the featured test rig with the various fragments of info that have been released via the Steorn forum. I've included a link to the comment on the forum in which the piece of information was given.

Static Test System
Larger version of image: http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/2679/staticdef1oc6.jpg


Mdrive17 (stepper motor)
Manufacturer Page: http://www.imshome.com/mdrive17plus_mdm.html
Forum Reference: http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=19762&page=6#Item_38

HBM T20WN (torque sensor)
Manufacturer Page: http://www.hbm.com/products/SEURLF/ASP/SFS/SUBCAT.9/CATEGORY.1/PRODID.358/MM.17,72,146/SFE/ProductDataSheet.htm
Forum Reference: http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=19762&page=10#Item_29

WDG-58E-12-3600-ABN-I24-L3 (angle encoder)
Manufacturer Page: http://www.wachendorff.de/eng/Drehgeber/products_hwdg_sinus.php
Forum Reference: http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=22621&page=1#Item_41

The stepper motor is connected to a 3:1 pulley which is connected to a 50:1 gearbox.
Forum Reference: http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=22621&page=2#Item_20

Break for friction:
The break is used for adjustable friction.
Forum Reference: http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=21841&page=9#Item_32
The brass is in contact with the shaft.
Forum Reference: http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=22093#Item_45

Pin couplings - spider type
Similar to: http://www.vibrationmounts.com/RFQ/VM09008.htm
Official Reference: Shown in images in Overview of Test System.pdf in compensation_example.zip from the Flash presentation


General statements

Static test system = The system moves, has a settling time, and then takes torque and angle measurements. The system is positioned using stepper motors.
http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18402&page=2#Item_44

Pin coupling is used mostly for static systems.
http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=19762&page=5#Item_18

A stepper motor (in open loop control) with an appropriate gearbox should be used for static testing.
Official Reference: Flash presentation, Part 1-1

The angles between measurement arms will vary depending on the tests.
http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=20521&page=2#Item_2

Assumption:
If the arm on the left side is connected/supported in the same way that the arm on the right is, then it appears that this test rig would only be able to place the arms in directions orthogonal to each other.


Last edited by TylerD1 on Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:51 am PostPost subject:
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Nice post TylerD1, thanks for the update. It's a difficult job wading through the Steorn forums looking for this information and i believe we are building an important and usefull resource here.

Interesting info regarding the gear ratio's, and stepper motors. That answers a lot of my questions about this rig. I still have a couple of unknowns though...

1. It is interesting that the mountings for brass weights on either arm are of different diameter. One mount is almost twice the diameter of the other, and therefore would significantly change the torque profile. Wonder what the purpose of this is?

2. What is this rig missing. If all parts are accounted for, then this rig was either not built to test magnetic configurations, or it has some parts missing. Perhaps the brass weights are replaced by magnetic configurations... seems to crude though.

Once again, i appreciate your input!

Edit:

One more thing... perhaps we can clarify the difference between static and dynamic rigs. I assume static (as you say) is a controlled test to move the configuration with the stepper motor and observe energy output comparing energy in to energy out. Whilst a dynamic rig is a self running machine, no stepper motor required, or powered by the machine itself ?
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Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:25 am PostPost subject:
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TylerD1,

Welcome to the forum! That was a great update and we all appreciate it very much!

Avid,

All I can assume is that the overunity device is probably small and located in that white box near the 3:1 Pulley.
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Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:36 am PostPost subject:
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I also want to add one of the Sean's recent comments to this thread.

Quote:
Q: What are the measured % energy output over the sum totals per path? (also as a % or times friction)?

A: Talking about being on the road I am out of the country at the moment, but a typical configuration will produce a net result of circa 300%, hence if 1J is Ďlostí in a cycle then 3J would be gained. Friction is not significant and I have no data on it to hand.

Q: Are the paths on the same plane (2D motion)? If not, does each path stay in itís own plane of motion, or each path also have a 3D component.

A: It is possible (but difficult) to build devices with motion in 1 plane, at the moment 2 planes are the simplest to build, but like all technologies this is under constant development.

Q: The intermittent move, stop and go, is that needed for degaussing any parts of the device?

A: No this is to allow transfer of energy from one plane to another.


This makes me think that the natural way to test the device is with two arms! Because it seems like there are two moving rotors and to test the output of each one you would need an arm. This makes me think the "OU" part of the device is in that small white box.
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Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:32 pm PostPost subject:
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Fantastic post Tyler! BTW, this all still points to the moving magnet being attatched to a disk assembly that rotates and moves in an up and down motion.
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Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:43 pm PostPost subject:
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Sorry all,

I should've been a little more obervant when watching the Flash Video part I. It clearly defines the 'static' test rig.
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Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:19 pm PostPost subject:
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Sean said yesterday that the reason they are late on the rest of the flash presentation is that he has been traveling and has to go back to the office, review the presentation, and give his final approval before it's posted.

He said that should occur by Monday.

Maybe, just maybe, we will have enough information to get started on our quest!
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Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:42 pm PostPost subject:
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[quote][quote="babcat"]Sean said yesterday that the reason they are late on the rest of the flash presentation is that he has been traveling and has to go back to the office, review the presentation, and give his final approval before it's posted.

He said that should occur by Monday.

Maybe, just maybe, we will have enough information to get started on our quest![/quote][/quote]

Just a note, having information on how it works and been able to replicate do not always go hand and hand. A lot may depend on the manufacturing process specifications, type of materials, if they readily available involved. Parts and/or assembly tolerances etc.
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Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:46 pm PostPost subject:
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TylerD1
Nice annotation there.
Thx for confirming my earlier observations on the "red circle area in question".
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Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:44 am PostPost subject:
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tyler d1
outstanding , thanks
and welcome.

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Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:44 am PostPost subject:
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I just wanted to mention that Sean said that the next two parts of the Flash Presentation should summarize all the the information they are willing to give out so far. That was in a response to a post I made about how we need one central source for all the information given so far.
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