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Feynman deleted Steorn Forum post.

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Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:01 pm PostPost subject: Feynman deleted Steorn Forum post.
Frank
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The post that was deleted said in a couple of sentences what
I had already said earlier in the post below., i.e. that Carnot
suggested that speed variation could be the key to trapping
an energy increment.

======================================
Sept 28th 2006

Since no shield is involved the only way I can see that
the Steorn can mine energy from the Gamma-atmosphere
is to enter and exit the magnetic pressure zones at
different speeds

The normal way the Carnot cycle is represented is by the
use of insulation to effect the adiabatic portions of the
cycle. But one can achieve the same effect by having very
slow isothermal branches and very fast adiabatic branches.

If you approach one pole of a magnet very quickly and move
away very slowly, likewise with the opposite pole then you
will in effect be simulating the Carnot cycle at the Gamma-
atmosphere scale. Running the cycle one way will output
energy. Running it in reverse will absorb energy - and this
is just what Steorn claim for their machine.

It must be remembered that there is no essential difference
between pressure and the inverse of temperature other than
the scale of the closed path motion. The high pressure end
of the magnetic source must correspond to 1/temperature
(Compreture) at the Beta-atmosphere scale and the low
pressure end of the magnetic sink must correspond to
pressure at the Beta-atmosphere scale.

The Finsrud machine evidently works on the same principle
and we know that has no shield either. Obviously, the Steorn
is producing a much greater output than the Finsrud.
======================================

If anybody has any questions on the above I'll do my best
to answer them.
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Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:07 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Interesting. I think I'm having a eureka moment. Smile

Is it ok if I move this to the General Discussion sub-forum? I think it is better placed there.
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Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:12 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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Fine Very Happy

I'm not used to this format yet. I hoped a Mod would move it to an apporopriate spot.

Thanks.
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Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:17 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Already moved, take a look at the forum this thread is in. Wink

Actually, this type of forum is one of the most common on the internet and is probably the most user friendly. I'm suprised Steorn don't use a version of it.
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Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:21 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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For anyone not familiar with the Carnot cycle, there is quite a good simulation at:

http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/109N/more_stuff/flashlets/carnot.htm

You should slow it right down and pause it at the junctions between isothermal and adiabatic and carfully consider what is going on.
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Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:23 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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Shouldn't that URL above be clickable? What have I done wrong?

I found out and corrected it. Very Happy

Bloody sight better format than the Steorn Forum
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Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:25 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Testing...

http://www.steorn.net

OK, it looks like you don't need to add the URL tags, just post the url and the forum software will make it automatically clickable.
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Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:31 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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That's even easier. I had discovered that by positioning the cursor at the begining - clicking [URL] - then positioning at the end and clicking again, it comes up in the right format.

But if it recognises a URL automatically, that's even better. Smile
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Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:17 pm PostPost subject:
babcat
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Hello Frank,

Welcome to the forum.

I'm facinated with that post. I do have a few questions.

1) Are you saying that you deleted that post yourself from the Steorn forum or if they deleted it?

2) Could you provide a few links to the background scientific concepts in that post? For example, the gamma atmosphere concept. Or could you explain it in laymen terms.

3) Lets consider a magnet in the middle and a magnet on each side. Could you please explain what is occuring again?
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Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:57 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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I'd be interested in some information regarding the Gamma Atmosphere as well Frank.
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Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:08 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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Hello Frank,

Welcome to the forum.

I'm facinated with that post. I do have a few questions.

Q1. Are you saying that you deleted that post yourself from the Steorn forum or if they deleted it?

A1. I deleted it.


Q2. Could you provide a few links to the background scientific concepts in that post? For example, the gamma atmosphere concept. Or could you explain it in laymen terms.

A2. For the full monty go to;
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Beta-atmosphere_group/
and read the papers and documents in the FILE and PHOTO sections of the site.

In layman's terms, materials are held together by external pressures not internal tensions. Atomic scale materials are held together by Beta-atm. pressures. Nuclear scale materials are held together by the much greater Gamma-atm. pressures.

Electric phenomena (comb and paper) are manifestations of reduction in B-atm. pressure. The much stronger magnetic phenomena are a manifestation of reduction in G-atm. pressure.

The Crookes radiometer is an example of a Beta-atm. motor.
The Steorn is an example of a Gamma-atm. motor.
Both motors have a purely mechanical output.
The Crookes has no practical use because the power/weight ratio is so small.
The Steorn has a practical use because the power/weight ratio is much larger.


Q3. Lets consider a magnet in the middle and a magnet on each side. Could you please explain what is occuring again?

A3. Not off hand. But if you think of a magnet as a turbine pumping out substance at one pole and "sucking" it in at the other, you should be able to come up with some kind of explanation yourself. Smile
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Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:11 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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WhiteLite wrote:
I'd be interested in some information regarding the Gamma Atmosphere as well Frank.


See the reply to babcat.
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Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:06 am PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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That is a brilliant idea Frank. I don't have time to comment in detail as I'm at work again but I certainly have some ideas you might be interested in!
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Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:42 pm PostPost subject:
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Very interesting Frank.

THanks.

Is the following link a good representation for this ?

http://www.engineersedge.com/thermodynamics/carnot_cycle.htm
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Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:16 pm PostPost subject:
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So wait. The Carnot cycle basically says that all machines are innefficient. Maybe you guys can explain to the simple people what you guys find so significant about the Carnot cycle with regards to the Steorn device?
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Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:18 pm PostPost subject:
clovis ray20
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frank
one of the greatest gifts in the world.
is being able to communicate an idea or thought from one person to another.
this being the roll of a teacher.i like your answer A3 never thought of that way.
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Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:32 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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breeze wrote:
Very interesting Frank.

THanks.

Is the following link a good representation for this ?

http://www.engineersedge.com/thermodynamics/carnot_cycle.htm


To be brutally honest - no it isn't.

The details, the numbers don't matter. One has to get a feeling for the principles, especially the three dimensional aspect of what is taking place. In the following animation

http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/109N/more_stuff/flashlets/carnot.htm

The thermometer to the left of the graph is in effect the third dimension, the z dimension going into the paper. Construct a three dimensional diagram with straws and you will see what I mean. Make the isothermal horizontal (x axis), the adiabatic vertical (y axis)and the temperature the orthogonal (z axis).

You need to think in terms of Dr.Who's Tardis. You are raising a concentrated motion (Tardis space) up into ours space (Volume). The space exchange is taking place in the Adiabatic arms.

Alternatively you can view it in terms of pressure energy exchange.


Lord Kelvin once said,

"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; ..."

That's bollocks. Once you've got the qualitative ideas by the throat, the numbers will follow.

Kelvin also said, for instance, "X-rays will prove to be a hoax." No doubt had he been alive today he would have said, "the Steorn magnetic motor will prove to be a hoax."
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Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:01 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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sintosol wrote:
Maybe you guys can explain to the simple people what you guys find so significant about the Carnot cycle with regards to the Steorn device?


The Carnot cycle is a particular case of a more general method of raising motion from the micro-scale to the macro-scale'

If we have an oil drum full of water and we punch a hole in the side near the base, water pisses out with some velocity. We are transforming micro-scale motion into macro-scale motion. We normally think of this as the conversion of pressure energy (strain energy) into kinetic energy but that's only because we can't see or measure the fine scale motion directly. If we could we wouldn't bother to have the concept of pressure and we would work out everything in terms of motion. We are transforming pressure (an alias for motion, just as force is an alias for strain) into perceptible motion.

Now the magnetic Field, Flux, Flow, is obviously (to anyone who has not had his mind enchained by education) a manifestation of motion. The Carnot cycle principles apply to this kind of motion just as much as they do to the specific case of the heat engine.
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Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:56 pm PostPost subject:
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Frank,

Let me ask you a question.

Are you indeed Feynman from the Steorn forums?

If so, you made the following post.

Quote:
If you haven't realised it yet, this is an ARG.
Altered Reality Game.

But it isn't. It's a financial scam posing as an ARG.

The perpetrators will all be going to prison - if they are lucky.

Otherwise they are going to wind up very dead.
1 to 18 of 18


Quote:
In case there is anyone left on these forums who
isn't an employee of Steorn's you should realise
that this forum is a criminal conspiracy, a financial
scam posing as a A.G.R.

Shaun has control of all information coming through
you computer - but he doesn't have control of the
phones. Lister pointed out the danger of this in
a very perceptive post.

If you are innocent of any wrong doing, phone me
on 020 8907 8401. You can reverse the charges.


If you think all of Steorn's work is a scam and accusing them of being guilty of criminal conduct (and saying they are going to go to jail or be killed) why are you on this forum?
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Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:17 am PostPost subject:
babcat
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bump
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Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:47 am PostPost subject:
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No need to Bump the thread -- We're not so busy that it's in danger of disappearing from the first page Smile
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Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:28 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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Quote:
Frank,

Let me ask you a question.

Are you indeed Feynman from the Steorn forums?

If so, you made the following post.


Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Embarassed

I think I must have eaten something that disagreed with me.
Still, it was a felix culpa cos it got me phone calls from quite
a few of the members and one was very informative on the
subject of magnetic motors. Wink
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Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:05 am PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Frank, if I understand you correctly then the bonds between atoms that make up molecules are like the equivanlent of sucktion cups. This sounds interesting as I always thought it strange then when you add energy to break up molecules then you had nothing left except atoms. That would suggest that atomic bonds were made up of anti-energy that would be cancelled out by the energy you put in to break up the molecule which seemed unlikely to me. (Not sure if that made sense, lol).

Have you any idea what particles, (if you can call them particles), make up the Beta and Gamma atmosphere? Do you think that maybe when sub-atomic particles join together they form a magnetic field that exludes the Gamma-atmosphere and there provides this "vacuum" that ensures these particles stick together? How does this relate to Steorns device?
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Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:32 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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WhiteLite wrote:
Frank, if I understand you correctly then the bonds between atoms that make up molecules are like the equivalent of suction cups. This sounds interesting as I always thought it strange then when you add energy to break up molecules then you had nothing left except atoms. That would suggest that atomic bonds were made up of anti-energy that would be cancelled out by the energy you put in to break up the molecule which seemed unlikely to me. (Not sure if that made sense, lol).

Have you any idea what particles, (if you can call them particles), make up the Beta and Gamma atmosphere? Do you think that maybe when sub-atomic particles join together they form a magnetic field that excludes the Gamma-atmosphere and there provides this "vacuum" that ensures these particles stick together? How does this relate to Steorn's device?


"Suction caps"? In effect, yes. But I think we can put it in a more sophisticated way than that. Smile
Let's say Bernoulli pressure drops due to the electromagnetic fluxes (only another word for flows).

Yep, "anti-energy" is good - but here again negative energy (tensile strain energy) is better.

I have an idea what the Beta-atmosphere neutral mass, neutral charge particles are and will dig out the posts I have already made on this forum and elsewhere which describes them. As to what the Gamma-atmosphere particles are, I haven't a clue but the self-similarity of the larger structure suggests they must exist. In effect it's turtles all the way down.
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Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:52 am PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Thanks Frank. I'ma bit of a layman and not great at Physics, although I took Chemistry at A-level so I am familiar with such concepts as atomic bonds and electron sharing etc. As I understand it you are saying that if, for example, 2 Hydrogen atoms come together then they start sharing their electrons which creates a magnetic field. This field then expels the Beta-atmosphere, (or some of it), lowering the atmospheres pressure between the atoms and forcing them together to form an H2 molecule via something like the Bernoulli effect.

It is a pretty theory, I like it, although it does raise many more questions, (but that's half the fun). I pressume that whatever makes, for example, the beta-atmosphere would have to be smaller than atoms, (assuming the atmosphere was made of particles?).

BTW, I find the layout of the Yahoo group you post in pretty confusing otherwise I would have looked there for more info. Smile
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