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Axle manner - Axbo

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Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:19 am PostPost subject: Axle manner - Axbo
Axle
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I need a place to post my work regarding Steorn's most recent Orbo, this looks like a good spot

Axle


Last edited by Axle on Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:23 pm PostPost subject: Re: Axle manner - Axbo
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Axle wrote:
I need a place to post my work regarding Steorn's most recent Orbo, this looks like a good spot

updates pending 8)

Axle


Looking forward to it.
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:45 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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I'm thinking 'deeper/longer' rotor magnets would tend to 'smooth out' the forces between the rotor magnets and the coil(s).





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Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:30 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Lets see that with lines to each pole face Wink
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:13 pm PostPost subject:
Axle
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Hi Harvey,

Harvey wrote:
Lets see that with lines to each pole face Wink


Lines to each (outer*) pole face would, of course, be all the same regardless of the 'length' of the rotor magnets. I put the lines to the center of each rotor magnet to represent what I am thinking is the 'vector' [direction wise] that the rotor magnets are attracted to the 'ferrite' toroid of the coil.

Am just playing around with this idea in a graphical way with my three drawings. It seems to me that a 'longer' rotor magnet, as it passes the
'ferrite' core, would do so in a less violent way ['violent' probably the wrong word] assuming that my 'direction vector' thinking is correct. The torque, with longer rotor magnets, is applied less along the outer diameter: closer in toward the center of the rotor. Resulting in, I suspect, a 'smoother running' rotation.

Axle

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Last edited by Axle on Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:15 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Hi Axle,

The vectors will be different because the farther pole will have less force than the nearest pole. Therefore the combined attraction will favor the near end vector wise.

Take the magnetism of each pole surface as m. Then calculate the magnetism at the prescribed distanced as m/x. Then add the two values using vector addition to arrive at the net value and angle.

I suppose it would be possible to find a length and a pivot motion where both poles have an equal attraction on ingress and egress from the core. Of course it would be conservative. If you occlude the core on egress then that portion is moot. Therefore all you need is a length and an angle that offers symmetry on ingress.

Cheers,


Cool
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Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:35 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Harvey,

I would agree with you 100% if the core material were itself a magnet, and had N/S poles of its own. The ferrite cores that I'm playing around with are not themselves magnets. I'm somewhat certain Steorn is also using some sort of ferrite material in their cores. Sean mentioned somewhere along the line that their cores are a 'soft'
[my understanding: 'soft' = Ferromagnetic material that is easily demagnetized] material.

Imagine, for instance, that both a 'rotor' magnet and a ferrite core are floating weightlessly in outerspace. The 'rotor' magnet is cylindrically shaped, axially magnetized. I contend that these two attract each other with a directional vector that passes, more or less, through the center of mass of the two objects.

To take my 'outerspace experiment' a step further. What if the 'rotor' magnet were a sphere? Do I understand you correctly, that your analysis would lead to one of the poles of the sphere magnet, the nearest pole to the ferrite core, turning toward the ferrite core as the two attract?

Axle Question
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Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:24 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Actually the torque, the turning of the magnet, occurs before the attraction. And yes, the strongest field will take priority but because the weaker is physically attached it will certainly offer some resistance to that torque based on its alignment torque in the opposite direction. It is possible that the core material adopts an exact opposite in real balance that halts the torque entirely, but not very probable. Perhaps in an inertial condition or something it could happen that way.

As far as Steorn cores go, I don't think I am at liberty to discuss those. But I imagine with a little searching you could find the material as they did.

The sphere magnet has a different flux distribution than a cylinder magnet. The sphere is more uniform. The cylinder has the flux bunched up at the corner.

Cheers,

Cool
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Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:32 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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You've got me thinking Harvey..alright...hmm....

Ok, Each of the N and S poles of the rotor magnets are BY FAR the the biggest 'magnitude' components of the vectors. [Vector = Direction and Magnitude, my understanding]





It's getting late. Need sleep. I'm still seeing, based on my drawings, a 'less violent' interaction with the longer rotor magnets.

Axle
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Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:51 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Now you've got it Wink

The next factor to consider in this configuration is the lever arm associated with the torque. Specifically, the distance the pole is from the center of the rotor. This condition can cause a farther pole to have a greater leverage or torque even with a weaker force. You have to determine the magnetic force and apply the leverage factor to determine the torque.

Because both are attracted to the ferromagnetic core, they work together here so the forces are additive - vector added.

Then finally, you will need to address the hysteresis of the core material. How well and how fast does it align with the changing field configurations. Naturally this will impact the actual magnetic force between any stator and the rotor magnets.

Cheers,

Harvey
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:29 am PostPost subject:
bano
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Axle wrote:
You've got me thinking Harvey..alright...hmm....

Ok, Each of the N and S poles of the rotor magnets are BY FAR the the biggest 'magnitude' components of the vectors. [Vector = Direction and Magnitude, my understanding]





It's getting late. Need sleep. I'm still seeing, based on my drawings, a 'less violent' interaction with the longer rotor magnets.

Axle



Axle, hi:))

I am litle bit confused which I write in Your thread but ezkuse me please.
According too this example :
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3663767/how_to_build_a_free_electricity_generator/
I think which the dimension of the satelites (stator rolers) must be some groowed.

In example we give the OCMPMM,s device and we make the stators rollers 2 or 3 tyme increased the dia.I would be like You Axle be not embarased to me.
May be I am wrong but this is my sugestion.
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:48 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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HI bano. Do not post your stuff here. Thanks.

not ready for prime time. working on it.



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Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:50 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Looking good
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:47 pm PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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I did a lil Orbo try. My regular rotor, but a lil toroid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrtGzxOKpwQ

Just 1 stator

Mags
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:23 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Hey, that's pretty kewl there MagDimeIn

I wonder if you got sixteen in series if there would be enough current to occlude the core . . . hmmmm less heat same work-key ?

Does is go either way or does it have a preference to direction?

Cheers,


Cool
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:04 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Hey Harvey
It needs rewound. It pulls too much current and isnt totally wrapped. Im rewinding it now. If there were 16 then they would have to be wound accordingly, what ever that is, to get the best magic act.
It will go both ways, just timing, the N n S out dont matter here and the reed isnt polarized so it triggers off of all mags. Its an Orbo of the 3rd kind. That was a great movie back then.
Im going with some thicker wire for the first try. But if more of thinner work better, then we cut down on input even better. Its tiny so it wont take long to put a couple feet on it.
Im using my 555 circuit now to multi pulse while the reed is closed. I just interrupted the gate of the mosfet with the reed, with a 47k res on the gate to ground to keep it low while the reed is off, and the 555 output overrides that resistor and has its own low. im putting a very small cap on the coil and try to find a resonant freq that may get me some freebe's in on time. if the cap is too big, the pulse dump can be more than wanted.

Its a good experience.

16 or even more. Imagine phases of them next to each other making the rotor chase the visible toroid. It would be a smooth runner with plenty of torque.

Mags
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:17 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Hi Magluvin, SWEET VID !
Hi Harvey, I do greatly appreciate your input !! Thanks !!

..and Mr. bano, please try to keep on topic if you feel the need to post here, keep it 'short and sweet'. Thanks.

Magluvin, here is some of the 'trial and error' regarding my coil winding.

Axbo version (of J. R. Naudins?) 'Drop Test' using a rechargeable 1.2V Enercell AA battery.







The core that passed my 'Axbo version drop test' is described as a "J material".
http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html
(ICH) ZJ41605TC

I'm just going with whatever seems to 'work' [spinny thing wise], and also to not spend HOURS winding these cores with thin wire. The wire I wound on the core that passed my drop test, I pulled out of an old transformer. My best guess is that it is 20 or 21 or 22 gauge, about .8 mm in diameter. The clear insulation coating on it is rather thick. About 42 total winds, twice around, works for me. Less windings (once around) may work too, based on a quick test I did while winding my 4th coil in the same way.

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Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:08 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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The drop test is good . . . but, we need a MMF comparison also. In other words, how much attraction is there?

If there is so little attraction that it barely hangs on, then it is easy to drop, but that would also mean that very little torque would be produced.

Conversely, you may have a great deal of attraction on one of the others and it almost drops but not quite. So, it is the ratio between the two that matters.

Consider a heavier magnet for instance. It may not stick to the little guy, but may stick great to the big guy. Then what would the drop test tell us? How heavy of a magnet do we need before the big coils work in the drop test?


Ok, just throwing out ideas =)
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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My latest version


[edit] I deleted my latest video from YouTube. My vid camera is crapy. I'll maybe make another, better quality, later on today.

Here is the same video. I have it posted only on photobucket now.
[It's powered by the 1.2V battery!!! I know..I know.. the battery is not fully showing. I'm not 'pulling a Mylow']





Last edited by Axle on Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:10 am; edited 5 times in total
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:30 pm PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Hey Axle
When winging these, you have to consider the voltage that you are running. As you see, the one that works best has thick wire and least turns. That enables more current from the battery thus more field strength. Also the rotor magnet strength can override the ON toroid core function.
Like last night I rewound the tiny tor and it was less turns of thicker wire, but in my case it is too much at 5v and the effect was lessened. So now I know to use the same wire as originally was on there and add more turns. So each of those trial toroids will have their own criteria when it comes to how many turns of what wire, and they will work too, maybe one that is better than the Awesome ones you have going.
Probably making one with a few taps at the end of the winding can help you really find optimum turns. And winding the first half of the turns around once and then the second half in between the first will give a bifi type capacitance which can help hold the on time a hair beyond reed cutoff in which you can shorten the pulse and save some input.

Little things mean a lot. =]

Man that thing spins up good. Any power in data?

mags
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:24 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Hi Magluvin, Hi Harvey, How's it going?

So many variables with this coil winding stuff ! (nothing new there..hehe)

At this point, I am happy enough with the coils that I have. The biggest (continuing) problem is reed switch failure. They work fine for awhile, then fail.
They overheat and the contacts fuse together, or burn out, or something. For whatever reason, after a time they fail. Today, I got it all spinning up with a full charged-rechargeable battery and just let it run. After an hour no problem. It was spinning away at close to max RPM (I have a Laser Tachometer on order).
At about 1-1/2 hours into it, the reed switch failed.

I had 3 reed switches 'bundled close, soldered in parallel, together' epoxyed inside plastic tubing.



My circuit includes a 'flyback diode' wired in like this...[image edited from Wikipedia - 'Flyback Diode']



Remember too that I'm powering this thing with a 1.2v battery

So...I've ordered 1 amp rated reed switches. The reeds I've been using are rated at 0.2 amp [AMP MAXIMUM - SWITCHING]
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:04 am PostPost subject:
bano
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[quote="Axle"]Hi Magluvin, Hi Harvey, How's it going?

quote]
Regards AxleVery nice job!!!
Can You using Hall switch or... chemotronics device? (chemical switched device - they running with Jodium and are with very smal consumption)
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:25 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Hi bano, Thanks!

I will use anything that will allow me to continue to power this thing with
a 1.2v battery. So far, I find that only reed switches will do the job.

Axle


Last edited by Axle on Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:42 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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I've a few .2 amp reed switches left. Might as well get it spinning up again.



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Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:17 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Axle,

Remember the points in your car? Same principle, arcing. You need a condenser across the reed switch.

Some guys are using a resistor across there and claim it helps, but I think those automotive guys have it right.

Cheers,

Cool
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Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:25 am PostPost subject:
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Hi Axle
Very Nice work!
I pulled a relay I use In some Clocks I designed for the LIRR Train staitions.
I wanted to see if it would act like your reed and sure enough it did.
very good sensitivity to my wip mag spinning by it.
the good point of it is that it's rated for 2A at 250v
at your 1.5 volts these contacts would never seize, Add harveys cap (condenser) and your good to go.
This parts a little boxxy shaped and I'm sure there are reeds with higher contact ratings.
Part # is DS2E-M-DC5V Aromat(maybe another name now)
I have A bunch if you want a few let me know.
Harvey "Sparked" an idea with reference to auto points. how about mounting a tiny mag to a set of points? they can handle the rapid contact switching very well.
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Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:17 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Hi Harvey, Hi Droid,

Thanks for your input!

Am now getting good results by simply not 'encapsulating' the (3 bundled together) reed switches with epoxy in plastic tubing. The air moving around the switches seems to cool them rather well. Plus, I can feel any heating directly by touching them with my fingers. Harvey, I've added a 47uF electrolytic capacitor across the reed switch wires, altho I am not sure of which way to orient it (It has + / - leads). I first tried a big 4,700uF cap and things got screwy, reeds overheated fast, (within a minute). So decided to go with a much smaller, 47uF capacitor.

Had 4+ hours continuous run times with a full charged battery, two evenings in a row. No reed switch failure.

Best so far. All for now.

Axle

EDIT: Regarding + / - leads on electrolytic capacitors. I am not a complete electronic newb. My confusion stems from the dynamics of this thing. A bunch of electrons are moving around in ways I'm trying to better understand.


Last edited by Axle on Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:17 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:34 pm PostPost subject:
bano
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Axle wrote:
Hi Harvey, Hi Droid,

Thanks for your input!

Am now getting good results by simply not 'encapsulating' the (3 bundled together) reed switches with epoxy in plastic tubing. The air moving around the switches seems to cool them rather well. Plus, I can feel any heating directly by touching them with my fingers. Harvey, I've added a 47uF electrolytic capacitor across the reed switch wires, altho I am not sure of which way to orient it (It has + / - leads). I first tried a big 4,700uF cap and things got screwy, reeds overheated fast, (within a minute). So decided to go with a much smaller, 47uF capacitor.

Had 4+ hours continuous run times with a full charged battery, two evenings in a row. No reed switch failure.

Best so far. All for now.

Axle

Axle, for automotive ignition You need from 0,47 mf condenzer. Because the Your inductive element is too smal than automotive iductive element ,Would be like to try with 0.1---1.0 mF capacitors
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Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:10 pm PostPost subject:
Axle
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Alright, I've switched over to a .22μF polyester film capacitor. The leads have no + / - markings so I assume the orientation does not matter with this cap.

Edit: The capacitors I'm using are rated μF [Microfarad], NOT mF [Millifarad]


Last edited by Axle on Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:10 am PostPost subject:
bano
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Axle wrote:
The leads have no + / - markings so I assume the orientation does not matter with this cap.


Yes just the maximal voltage must be high even 500 or more volts
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