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The Vesica Cycle

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Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:07 am PostPost subject: The Vesica Cycle
Frank
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I have been busy over on BesslerWheel.com, a nice relaxed forum full of experimentalists with not many theoreticians.

I recently posted this design for a gravity mill which I thought might amuse you. +JMJ+

===============================================================

IHM+IHS+JMJ

I will analyse a the movement of a single mass from zenith to nadir since at this stage I am only interested in proving the principle that energy can be obtained from the gravitational field and not is how much energy is obtained with this particular piece of kit. Once the principle is proved there are plenty of clever engineers who will develop things further.

At the zenith a red mass is moved horizontally to the corresponding blue. This leaves a gap where the red mass was and doubles the blue mass.

In the limit it takes infinitesimal energy to move the red mass horizontally to the blue mass. As the doubled blue mass moves along the left hand side of the Vesica the centre of mass of the whole system moves to the left thus creating a turning moment between the centre of mass and the system support at the geometric centre. This moment means that the whole system will rotate widdershins about the central support.

A spring and a ratcheted rod attached to the right hand rising end of the yoke allows work to be done.

The moment is a maximum when the doubled blue weight and the red wheel gap are at the central point shown in the figure above.

Beyond this point the moment starts to decrease and the end of the yoke starts to fall under the action of the return spring.

Also, beyond this point the ratched rod does not rise any further. Thus the useful work obtained is the raising of the rod during the first half of the doubled mass and gap descent.

The doubled mass reaches the nadir and the red mass is transferred back to the red wheel.

At the same time as this nadir transfer is taking place a new red mass is being moved to the blue wheel at the zenith and the whole cycle is repeated.

==============================================================

I should add a detail from earlier blog posts, i.e. that the wheels are coupled to each other with a crossed belt, gearwise in other words, with a ratio of (+1) : (-1).
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Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:22 pm PostPost subject:
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Switching Weights

I suppose the trickiest thing to implement in building a primitive Vesica Motor is the switching of weights to and fro between wheels.

To prove the principle though, one can stop the wheels at the zenith and nadir, then switch the weights manually. It is clear that only minimal gravitational energy need be lost by this switching. If any significant energy can be obtained the principle will be proved.

The operation of the Vesica seems so simple that, if correct, it is difficult to understand why no one has built it before. I feel I know how, in a theoretical sense at least, how Bessler and the Count must have felt. While it is true that seeing is believing sometimes reason can be even more persuasive than the evidence of one's own eyes.
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Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:00 am PostPost subject:
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Frank wouldn't the two wheels cancel out? I believe they are geared to contra rotate so the wheel with the missing weight would want to go the opposite way to what it is drawn so counter acting the heavier wheel.
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Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:23 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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Trim wrote:
Frank wouldn't the two wheels cancel out? I believe they are geared to contra rotate so the wheel with the missing weight would want to go the opposite way to what it is drawn so counter acting the heavier wheel.


The wheel with the missing weight, the red wheel, does indeed want to go the other way - but it can't cos the heavier blue wheel which has captured one of the red weights drags it round.

Frankly, I can't see any good reason why this motor won't deliver what BesslerWheel.com have been seeking, i.e. energy from gravity. The whole system is so simple that I can't find the flaw.

So far there has been zilch reaction from the serried ranks of Besslerarians which suggests that there is no blindingly obvious mistake.

However, in view of the earth shattering importance of such a claim I am loath to push it aggressively until others can also see what I see.

And even if I were a builder, which I'm not, I wouldn't want to be the person who suffered the trauma of seeing such a breakthrough manifest in physical form - and all the hoo-ha that would ensue.

It's bad enough experiencing the theoretical blinding light that the Vesica Pisces brings without seeing it in the flesh.

And thanks for your post, trim. All comments welcome.


Mmm.... There is always the possibility that someone has seen what I see and is busy building one in the pursuit of fame, glory and filthy lucre - maybe some forum lurker who is out to steal good ideas. I feel a bit like the man who stood in Piccadilly Circus trying to give away pound notes and not finding any takers.
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Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:56 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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Trim wrote:
Frank wouldn't the two wheels cancel out? I believe they are geared to contra rotate so the wheel with the missing weight would want to go the opposite way to what it is drawn so counter acting the heavier wheel.


IHS+IHM+AMDG

@ trim

The above diagram might help you to appreciate what is going on with the Vesica Motor.

One can eliminate all the matching masses since they balance each other out. This leaves only the doubled mass and the missing mass. The missing mass wants to rise like a bubble with the force of a single mass acting upwards. The doubled mass wants to fall like a stone with the force of a double mass acting downwards. Two is greater than one. So the double mass wins.
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Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:02 pm PostPost subject:
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I can appreciate that but why not let the bubble go up as well? Adding instead of subtracting? You could always gear it differently.
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Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:43 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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[quote="Frank"]
Trim wrote:
I can appreciate that but why not let the bubble go up as well? Adding instead of subtracting? You could always gear it differently.


If it ain't bust, don't fix it. Very Happy

In fact the bubble going down is the mass going up so your intention is right. think of a bubble going down in a column of water. The water is flowing up around it.

This action combined with the mass going down is what gives rise to the widdershins moment and the consequent rotation of the yoke to generate energy. It is all a matter of seeing things from the right datum (shades of the vapour pressure power laws).

Thanks for your reply trim. It gives me the opportunity of refining the explanation of what is going on here and makes me even more confident the the thing is going to work.

It is all a matter of looking at things from the right datum, from the correct bias to use the electronic concept. There are two different datums in play here, an external datum and an internal datum. In the Vapour Pressure of Water case there were no less than three different datums for the correct measurement of temperature .
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Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:44 am PostPost subject:
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For some obscure reasons I dislike the word widdershins and prefer going counter clock-wise, I have never been praised for being thick before, I like it. So the bubble has potential. Could you use mercury or even water instead of a solid weight? And would it work with a conveyor belt type arrangement instead of a simple wheel? I like breaking things.
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:53 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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I must go down to the seas again,
for the call of the running tide
Is a wild call and a clear call
that may not be denied;
And all I ask is a windy day
with the white clouds flying,
And the flung spray and the blown spume,
and the sea-gulls crying.


Thinking about the transfer of mass sideways between the Driven and the Driver wheel reminded me of the way that the a yacht slides sideways through the water nearly at right angles to the wind.

Then it suddenly dawned on me that the Vesica Pisces is indeed just that. One wheel is the sail experiencing the force of the gravitational wind. The other/yoke is the keel anchored in the earth reaction inertial sea.

Now I know that sails and keels which are flat don't look at all like the Vesica Wheels which are round. But sails do not have to be flat. A rotor will achieve the same effect and what is true for a sail has to be true for a keel though I know of no example where a rotor is used as a keel in contrast to rotor sails.

But since we know from the many examples that Ventomobils can sail into the wind that must mean that if the Vesica Pisces Gravity Motor is a Ventomobil analogue it must be able to sail into the gravitational wind.

But if you think about it, that's exactly what it can do.

If instead of raising a ratcheted rod to demonstrate its ability to do work the Motor uses its energy to climb up a grounded vertical rod then it is "sailing" directly into the gravitational wind.

So it will work! And why not indeed?

To quote Mr Entropy's perceptive contribution to the Steorn Forum Ventomobil(e) thread

Simplest possible way to show that a wind-powered cart can do whatever it wants:

If you have access to two things (like the wind and ground) moving at different velocities V1 and V2 relative to you, then apply equal and opposite forces F and -F to them so that you do not accelerate. Doing this will get you or cost you energy at a rate of F*(V1-V2). If you choose the sign of F (apply the forces in the right direction) so that energy is gained, then you can use that energy to accelerate yourself in whatever direction you like.

Note that only the difference between V1 and V2 is significant, it doesn't matter how fast you are going or in which direction.


But the gravitational wind gives us such an effective difference in velocity.

So it must be possible to "yoke" it to our vessel.

Mmm... Glad to see that my time on the Steorn Forum wasn't wasted.

Come to think of it I probably had the concept of the Ventmobil at the back of my mind when I started on the Bessler riddle and that prompted me to intuitively see the possibilities of the Vesica pattern.
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Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:54 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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Trim wrote:
For some obscure reasons I dislike the word widdershins and prefer going counter clock-wise, I have never been praised for being thick before, I like it. So the bubble has potential. Could you use mercury or even water instead of a solid weight? And would it work with a conveyor belt type arrangement instead of a simple wheel? I like breaking things.

You could use anything that had mass but why would you want too. A liquid would take too long to transfer. Think of F1 cars where they have a ruddy great fuel pipe. It still takes them quite a few seconds to fill the tank.

I'd go for that depleted uranium stuff myself since it's twice as heavy as lead. Probably a bit radioactive but once the motor is set going it would carry on till the bearing wore out so it would need much human intervention.

I'd better look it up.
    Metallic uranium (U) is a silver-white, lustrous, dense, weakly radioactive element. It is ubiquitous throughout the natural environment, and is found in varying but small amounts in rocks, soils, water, air, plants, animals and in all human beings.
    Natural uranium consists of a mixture of three radioactive isotopes which are identified by the mass numbers 238U (99.27% by mass), 235U (0.72%) and 234U (0.0054%).
    On average, approximately 90 g (micrograms) of uranium exists in the human body from normal intakes of water, food and air. About 66% is found in the skeleton, 16% in the liver, 8% in the kidneys and 10% in other tissues.
    Uranium is used primarily in nuclear power plants. However, most reactors require uranium in which the 235U content is enriched from 0.72% to about 1.5-3%.
    The uranium remaining after removal of the enriched fraction contains about 99.8% 238U, 0.2% 235U and 0.001% 234U by mass; this is referred to as depleted uranium or DU.
    The main difference between DU and natural uranium is that the former contains at least three times less 235U than the latter.
    DU, consequently, is weakly radioactive and a radiation dose from it would be about 60% of that from purified natural uranium with the same mass. The behaviour of DU in the body is identical to that of natural uranium.
There's oodles more on DU here.
Doesn't sound too bad to me.

I know you're interested in health stuff, trim. What do you think.

Trouble is of course that there would be nearly enough DU for all the power stations required. Still, it would be a good way of getting rid of any existing accumulation.

.
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Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:09 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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Frank wrote:
I must go down to the seas again,
for the call of the running tide
Is a wild call and a clear call
that may not be denied;
And all I ask is a windy day
with the white clouds flying,
And the flung spray and the blown spume,
and the sea-gulls crying.


Thinking about the transfer of mass sideways between the Driven and the Driver wheel reminded me of the way that the a yacht slides sideways through the water nearly at right angles to the wind.

Then it suddenly dawned on me that the Vesica Pisces is indeed just that. One wheel is the sail experiencing the force of the gravitational wind. The other/yoke is the keel anchored in the earth reaction inertial sea.

Now I know that sails and keels which are flat don't look at all like the Vesica Wheels which are round. But sails do not have to be flat. A rotor will achieve the same effect and what is true for a sail has to be true for a keel though I know of no example where a rotor is used as a keel in contrast to rotor sails.

But since we know from the many examples that Ventomobils can sail into the wind that must mean that if the Vesica Pisces Gravity Motor is a Ventomobil analogue it must be able to sail into the gravitational wind.

But if you think about it, that's exactly what it can do.

If instead of raising a ratcheted rod to demonstrate its ability to do work the Motor uses its energy to climb up a grounded vertical rod then it is "sailing" directly into the gravitational wind.

So it will work! And why not indeed?

To quote Mr Entropy's perceptive contribution to the Steorn Forum Ventomobil(e) thread

Simplest possible way to show that a wind-powered cart can do whatever it wants:

If you have access to two things (like the wind and ground) moving at different velocities V1 and V2 relative to you, then apply equal and opposite forces F and -F to them so that you do not accelerate. Doing this will get you or cost you energy at a rate of F*(V1-V2). If you choose the sign of F (apply the forces in the right direction) so that energy is gained, then you can use that energy to accelerate yourself in whatever direction you like.

Note that only the difference between V1 and V2 is significant, it doesn't matter how fast you are going or in which direction.


But the gravitational wind gives us such an effective difference in velocity.

So it must be possible to "yoke" it to our vessel.

Mmm... Glad to see that my time on the Steorn Forum wasn't wasted.

Come to think of it I probably had the concept of the Ventomobil at the back of my mind when I started on the Bessler riddle and that prompted me to intuitively see the possibilities of the Vesica pattern.


The weight of the Vesica would be great compared to the amount of energy available for climbing so a double sided rack would have to be very close to the main axle to give the necessary mechanical advantage - a bit like the Ventomobil shown here. (I haven't seen that video before. I presume there must be some kind of radio control of the steering to keep it going straight along that road).

The action would be intermittent since the Vesica has to be pointed into the gravitational wind like a salmon swimming upstream against the current. If you think about it the waggling of the salmon's tail is also intermittent. Another visual analogy is the mountaineer climbing up one of those vertical rock clefts with his feet against one side and his back against the other.

The video illustrates the huge difference between the diameter of the prop and the diameter of the wheels. On the Vesica the main axle would be the analogue of the small road wheels.
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:37 pm PostPost subject:
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Sorry Frank I don't think it will work. Taking my idea of a liquid or small ball bearing weight (to make it easier to design the weight shifting) as the potential bubble rises it will have to be slightly above the potential double weight so its gravity potential will be higher even if the 'bubble is falling its gravity potential will still be higher. So with friction the device will be a net energy looser. Sad
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Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:47 am PostPost subject:
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You seemed to have missed the point trim. The Vesica doesn't work by gravity mass. It works by inertial mass, i.e. by the difference in the angular velocity between the two wheels. Moving the body from one wheel to another does not change the gravitational potential but it does change the inertial potential of that body.

Angular velocity has to be conserved and so the wheels as a whole have to turn. This is where the work comes from.

The path gravitational mass takes is irrelevant. This is why conventional science says that getting work from the gravitational field is impossible.

The path inertial mass takes is not irrelevant. This is why one can get energy from the Vesica.

Gravitational mass and inertial mass are different whatever Albert might have said.
They are a measure of motion at vastly different scales. Leibniz had the right idea.
Quod non agit, non existit.

Inertial mass is simply inertia and anyone who has ever played with gyros knows that inertia is simply angular velocity - which is hierarchically conserved.

Mass is not a measure of material substance - it is an accidental property - using the word accident in the philosophical sense.
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Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:30 am PostPost subject:
Trim
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Hmm, must the wheels overlap so much? And would my idea of vertical conveyor belts be of any use?
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Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:41 am PostPost subject:
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Trim wrote:
Hmm, must the wheels overlap so much? And would my idea of vertical conveyor belts be of any use?


Hmm... Two endless conveyor belts coupled together gearwise like two Paternoster lifts with transfer taking place somewhere might just do it.

Now's your chance to come up with a working design, trim. Wink
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Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:47 am PostPost subject:
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My level is working with a couple of circular kraft cheese boxes.
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Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:06 am PostPost subject:
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Trim wrote:
My level is working with a couple of circular Kraft cheese boxes.

Anyone who has bought a lathe must have better experimental skills than me.
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:42 pm PostPost subject:
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You seem a bit quiet on the Vesica front lately, high you seen the errors of your ways or given up trying to convert idiots?
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:22 pm PostPost subject:
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Trim wrote:
You seem a bit quiet on the Vesica front lately, high you seen the errors of your ways or given up trying to convert idiots?
A bit of both.
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:56 am PostPost subject:
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Shame I was hoping you could convert me. I have been trying to get Phil to comment on my suggestion that the Orbo might run in a similar way to his heat to rotation converter, only his stator would be the rotor and vice versus, although the Orbo as far as I know doesn't make use of a vacuum it is faintly possible in theory that the converter needn't either.
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:04 am PostPost subject:
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The only thing which will convert anyone is a working machine. I have a builder who is having a go at the Keenie wheel so maybe that will show something. I have several other ideas which are worth following up based on the view of interrupted time that I outlined in my essay on the Nature of Time. You should read it.

Everything hinges of course on whether or not Bessler did achieve what he claimed.
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:15 pm PostPost subject:
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Everything hinges of course on whether or not Bessler did achieve what he claimed.

Why? He may have got wrong, However you may have got it right.

Is your real name Dunne? ( an experiment with time ). How long is your essay and how is it possible to read it?

If both wheels go in the same direction at the same speed, why not use a common axle for both? Oh, I see swapping weights won't make any difference on a common axle. Hmm perhaps a differential gear? No, still don't see it.
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:45 pm PostPost subject:
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Trim wrote:
...
How long is your essay and how is it possible to read it?
...

http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/5-3/commentary5-3a.pdf
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Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:39 am PostPost subject:
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Thanks, Interesting but I want a time machine where I can go back and change nasty things.
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Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:24 pm PostPost subject:
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The whole point of the essay is to show that you have a time machine if you look at time locally the same way we look at space.

If you look at space globally you can't go back because the world has moved on. If you look at time locally you can tidy up the room to the same state it was first thing in the morning when everything was flung around all over the place.
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Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:58 pm PostPost subject:
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How do you know that? Where have you hidden the cameras?

I am happy with the simple view of time and space the idea the arrow of time is caused by a few neurons in our brain (memory) infinite alternative pasts and futures and multiverses is just to much for my simple brain, Indeed if it exists the "Supreme Being" would be out of its depth as well.
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:10 pm PostPost subject:
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Why searching for 'Pequade momentum' I came back to your Bessler forum small world. It came up in your thread I hijacked with my fantastic skater.
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