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Magnetically Assisted Pendulum

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Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:38 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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I would like to say thanks to everyone who has taken time to investigate this phenomenon. The more tests that are done, and the greater the variety in the setup that exhibits it, the better our understanding will be regarding it. For instance, it has now been replicated in at least 3 geographical locations - but the latitude of those locations is not that different from each other. It would be good to see it reproduced at latitudes that are closer to the poles than they are to the equator.

Diffident, if I understand your test correctly, the ruler was balanced even with the magnets installed. But what isn't clear is whether or not the plane of rotation was horizontal or vertical, but either way it appears you have removed gravity from the equation. A few things to try:

1. Reverse the poles of the stator and test the apparatus in the opposite direction.

2. Ensure you have the same reaction from both rotor magnets (they may not be identical)

3. If the rig is in the vertical plane - it may need rebalanced after adding the magnets (if you wanted a balanced rotor)

4. Devise some method of pushing the magnet through that removes the human element at the time of interaction. (Like TK's 'nut drop' arrangement or the like)

Thanx again for experimenting with this and posting the results.


Cool
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Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:05 pm PostPost subject:
diffident
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Hello Harvey,

I originally set the device up to replicate your pendulum experiment. I didn't experiment rigorously because I saw right away that the single rotor magnet I was using would rise higher with a stator magnet in place than if it wasn't. I don't know exactly what led me to putting a similar rotor magnet on the other end, but I did, finding that it took several magnets to find two that seemed to have the same strength and weight. I was fascinated with how easily the rotor magnets kept popping through the sticky spot, even when I switched from vertical to horizontal. It's a sensitive setup, and it would easily revolve through 360 degrees several times. Then I realized that no way could I release the rotor carefully enough. In other words, surely Mr. Hand had a hand in it. Back to square one. But it's still a fascinating toy to play with. Thanks for your observations and advice. I don't recall seeing TK's "nut drop" arrangement, but perhaps Al's "burned string" arrangement will work. If some configuration I come up with that I think might be interesting to others, I'll post it.

Cheers,

Diffident
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Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:23 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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FYI: There is ongoing discussion over on the Steorn forum. I have done some additional experiments and reported my results. I tested some stator magnets positioned to either side of BDC and I constructed a crude more traditional 6" pendulum that shows a slight gain.

No additional photos or videos, just text.

You can follow the discussion if you like:

http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=61938
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Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:14 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Thanx OC.

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Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:42 pm PostPost subject:
diffident
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Yes; thanks, OC.

Concering the Steorn forum: I was following it last week. About your reference to lead balls, I'm using a standard-size clear plastic soda straw and non-magnetic bird shot from a shotgun shell. I'm using a #6 shot, but they come in different sizes.

Cheers,

diffident
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Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:28 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Diffident,

I checked in town, but the birdshot I can find is only available in 25lb bags and runs $40.00 per bag.

I was thinkin this would do the job. I'm planning to order this evening.

http://www.amazon.com/Round-Lead-Balls-Copper-coated-200ct/dp/B0018LF8EI/

OC
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Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:36 pm PostPost subject:
diffident
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OC:
Looks like they will work, but .25 caliber might be larger than you want. For approximately the same money, you can buy two boxes of shotgun shells and therefore have 2 different sizes of lead balls. I recently bought a box of 25 shells for about six bucks and busted one open to get at the lead.

By the way, by non-magnetic I meant the birdshot wasn't attracted to magnets. I suppose they are made of lead, but I haven't been bird hunting in quite a while and haven't kept up with mandates of law; last I knew, lead was being replaced by steel (or iron) to avoid polluting with lead. Mine look like they might be coated with graphite, but they aren't ferrous.

At any rate, if you can purchase shotgun shells locally, you'll get your lead balls quicker and cheaper!

Cheers,

diffident
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Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:49 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Diffident,

I already placed the order, should be here in a few days. Based on experiments I have done with magnets and BluTac, I think these will work nicely. Also, they should roll better.

I considered buying a box or 2 of shotgun shells, but birdshot is not that round or smooth. I want something that rolls easily. If it proves to be a problem, I can always change my mind later.

I looked for some Bismuth shot, but nobody in town carries it. Here's an article discussing nontoxic alternatives to lead:
http://www.gameandfishmag.com/hunting/guns-shooting/gf_aa116802a/

OC
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:34 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Hey OC
I stopped over at Steorn as directed by post, and man, didnt know there was big discussion about this.
Was thinking, If you start a 90 on the right, and end up higher than 90 deg on the left, then that is the point the wheel needs to be stopped. Latch, whatever, if it is higher in elevation than where it starts, this is what gravity machine people thrive for.
Once stopped, we need to find a way that either...

1 use the distance overcome and gravity to turn that mag.

The magnet could be in a geared housing that during the decline to L90 is spun into place. And likewise on the other side. Even if that is a slow process, as long as it is set and left to fall at 90, it should be solid proof.

2 Use that incline where stopped, to "roll" that mag to the R90 again.

Again, a geared housing so when the mag rolls to the other side, it is positioned properly when it gets there and it can release a Tiny latch to start the cycle over.

The very point that this thing makes, is that an object of certain weight can be dropped from a height, and the energy of the drop can bring that weight back up and higher. Simple, and real.
No matter what, cocking, whatever, a weight is going down hill and going higher up the next, with out external energy input. Period. What ever happens in the middle does not matter if there is no energy loss.
Maybe the magnet does not have to switch. Maybe 2 magnets, one on each side, and there is only an exchange of weights(glass marbles) that roll from L to R for the next cycle. And it just spins in one direction.

It is a seed of something good.


What has me goin is that need to drop it from 90 and no higher. So something specific is known. More or less is no good. How would that translate to a non gravity wheel? To make it horizontal like a whip, perhaps if a rotor mag is pushed through a stator at a particular speed, there may be a specific point just after that, that another stator mag could be pushed through and so on. As in the pen, things would have to be specific, and need saying, harmonic.


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Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:09 am PostPost subject:
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FWIW
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Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:49 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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jcmax wrote:
FWIW


Thank you jcmax - that is a very professional analaysis and almost* perfectly matches my work in the first post with the added advantage of the gravitational perspective.

It clearly shows what I have been stating all along, magnetic potential energy is traded for gravitational potential energy at what you refer to as -90 (270 on our rig markings).

This is where your analysis is incomplete: At that position, you must invert the bar magnet by 180 and recalculate the potential energy landscape. Also, the energy differentials need to be quantified as well as the energy needed to perform the work of inverting the magnet.

Once you have done this, you will find that there more energy available as gravitational potential energy than is required to invert the magnet - my analysis shows nearly 10 times what is needed. You will then realize, that as the MAP (Magnetically Assisted Pendulum) is allowed to complete the cycle, you will have a gain in that direction also.

In my actual tests the gain is additive to the point that the after about 7 or 8 swings the magnet advances to TDC and actually goes over the top.

I look forward to your completed analysis, and thank you for the work you have done thus far.

Cool

Edit to add footnote:

* I noticed that your choice for wheel radius is wrong, this should be 2.5 inches and the distance to the stator should be 5 inches. Also, the length of the bar magnet is 1/2" and the stator is only 1.25" diameter and 1/4" thick. See my previous post in this thread for the actual K&J magnets used where you can get the true values for their magnetic properties.
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Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:30 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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YeeeeHawww, My lead balls came in this afternoon's mail.

Just a quick sanity check by sticking them to the disc with BluTac just inboard from the magnets on one side shows the feasibility of using magnets on opposite sides with nonmagnetic weights. It'll take me a bit before I actually have a configuration where they can roll from one side to the other, but I can now get about 5 degrees of GPE increase with this rig. That should be enough to get things rolling.

This weekend, I'll see if I can put together the essentials to do another youtube video to demo the gain with magnets mounted on opposite sides of the disc.

OC
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Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:05 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Interesting. I have a feeling though that the roll will have to be a compound as I mentioned before.

Cheers,

Cool
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:58 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Oc
I had read your post at steorn
The way i would try to go about it is, there may be a way to get it to continuously spin, if the end of cycle weight is derailed to the tube near max gpe, while on the other side, a waiting weight enters the wheel at the start of the cycle, just as the down cycle rotor mag is at 90 deg. Meaning that it would enter the wheel just before the other gets to gpe And the previously derailed weight rolls to a stack of waiting weights that are always prepared to drop a new one to the beginning of the cycle. With this idea, the derail point would have to happen before a normal max gpe, in order to still have a bit of inertia left after the derail, to compensate for the loss of beginning cycle weight position at the time of derailing to the tube.

Another way would be, that the rotor needs to be stopped at the point of derail(gpe), via latch. A very dainty latch, for the rotor wont be going to fast at that point anyway. Then the weight is derailed, rolls to the other side, and is "dropped" into the beginning position, from 90 deg level, thus the drop may provide enough impulse to restart the wheel, and have enough umph to make up for the beginning magnets starting position, that is offset from 90 deg, due to the stopped position. Also, as the weight is dropped into starting position after rolling down the tube, the weight will trigger the lil dainty latch release to let the wheel spin for another cycle. By the way, the latch can be on the beginning side to easily facilitate, latch and release position.

Hope that helps.

Mags
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:31 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@Magluvin,

Good thinking, as usual. I have considered your suggestions, but for this weekend, I'm going to keep things pretty simple. I'm just going to put some small lead balls inside a soda straw and close both ends so the balls can roll from side to side. I'll be gluing the straw to my Whip II rotor. The latching I do will be pretty primitive.

For the moment, I just want to see if I can get the balls to roll from the high point back to where the started. If I have time, I might try some other simple experiments, but I don't think I'll be building a ball feed mechanism any time soon. I'm just trying to learn whether or not there's enough energy to get the weight back to starting position. It's just a proof of concept.
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:39 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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I'm just trying to learn whether or not there's enough energy to get the weight back to starting position.

I think there is, but that gain must be timely taken control of before the wheel starts to fall ccw. Latch. But then you will have the problem of where the new starting point will be, as in angle and ball to the wall, to make sure you make the next cycle. It will take some time for the ball to make it to the other side, so the wheel has to be taken control of, like Obamaism. Mr. Green
Im not trying to make things hard for ya, but there has to be systematic and efficient control to take full advantage of the gain. Thats why I had suggested marbles in another post, as they roll real nice and they are glass. Lead may have some drag properties.
And there are many more ways of getting it done. With the proper control mechanisms in place, its a winner. Seems so.

Magluvin
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:32 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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You know, I never considered an external ramp on this device to roll a ball to the other side. I have a magnetically assisted gravity wheel that does that, but it rolls the balls uphill using magnetic rails and then dumps the ball into the inner track. It has two rails. One from about 4 o'clock to the hub and then one from the hub to about 2 o'clock. I was working on the pickup and release mechanisms when I got side tracked here with the whipmag.

But Magluvins suggestion seems right to me. Whatever `E_[GP]` you have, roll from there back to horizontal on the external ramp. The `E_[MP]` should reset the rotor to horizontal as the ball rolls across and BAM your ready for another swing - easy peasy Very Happy Of course I've been up all night, its 4:31AM and everything works in my head right now LOL.

Cheers Magthinkin' !!

Cool
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:10 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Harvey wrote:
You know, I never considered an external ramp on this device to roll a ball to the other side. I have a magnetically assisted gravity wheel that does that, but it rolls the balls uphill using magnetic rails and then dumps the ball into the inner track. It has two rails. One from about 4 o'clock to the hub and then one from the hub to about 2 o'clock. I was working on the pickup and release mechanisms when I got side tracked here with the whipmag.

But Magluvins suggestion seems right to me. Whatever `E_[GP]` you have, roll from there back to horizontal on the external ramp. The `E_[MP]` should reset the rotor to horizontal as the ball rolls across and BAM your ready for another swing - easy peasy :D Of course I've been up all night, its 4:31AM and everything works in my head right now LOL.

Cheers Magthinkin' !!

8)


If you have read the discussion I had with Evolvealready in the Steorn forum, you will see I came to the same basic conclusions. I won't have time this weekend to build the more elaborate external ramp and latching and release mechanisms to achieve self sustaining operation. If I were to attempt all those things, I would have to contract it out.

My goal for the weekend is to simply determine and demonstrate whether an opposed rotor magnet pendulum has the potental to do such a thing. My first experiments with the weight indicate it should be possible.

I will have a primitive latch to support the wheel near its high point. I am using a soda straw tube with .25 caliber lead balls. I should have gotten larger balls (.50 caliber would be over 8 times the weight), but I didn't want to spend too much time and effort finding appropriate rigid tubing. The soda straw is easy to work with, and I think it will do the job.
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:30 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Nothing promising to report yet. Al's prediction seems to be holding true so far. I do seem to be getting a little better swing than the baseline no stator case, but it's not good enough to get over the hump and allow the weights to roll to the opposite side.

At the moment, I'm a bit disheartened, but if I can think of something constructive to try, I'll pick it back up and go for a bit longer.
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:36 pm PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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This is your new best friend OC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40H47Z_eOKE
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:08 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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overconfident wrote:
Nothing promising to report yet. Al's prediction seems to be holding true so far. I do seem to be getting a little better swing than the baseline no stator case, but it's not good enough to get over the hump and allow the weights to roll to the opposite side.

At the moment, I'm a bit disheartened, but if I can think of something constructive to try, I'll pick it back up and go for a bit longer.


Are you getting a `E_[GP]` with the lead balls? How much compared to an offset magnet alone? What if we used spherical magnets, calculate the rolling diameter to ensure polarity (and a small tiny at the end to align it the way we want) and roll that across? Just thinking out loud here.

Cool
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:16 pm PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Im really thinking a lot about the spherical bags as they are described as having a very concentrated field at the poles. It seems all shapes have there unique attributes that may need looking into for each purpose. I would give a few kinds a go.
Mags
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:33 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Magluvin wrote:
This is your new best friend OC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40H47Z_eOKE


That's my thinking too. If only I could get the height I thought I saw a few days ago. But I don't seem to be able to get that height today, in a cleaner environment with better viewing conditions.
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:40 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Harvey wrote:

Are you getting a `E_[GP]` with the lead balls? How much compared to an offset magnet alone?


I don't seem to be getting any gain, and it has me wondering what it was I saw the other day.

Harvey wrote:

What if we used spherical magnets, calculate the rolling diameter to ensure polarity (and a small tiny at the end to align it the way we want) and roll that across? Just thinking out loud here.


Interesting idea, then we could do the rolling with a magnetically unbalanced pendulum. I wonder how well the spere would roll?
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:48 pm PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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That guy I feel sorry for. Ive played with gravity only devices for years when i was younger and no matter how big he makes that wheel, she will balance out. But if he knew what you were working on, he would probably need a drink.
You see how good the balls roll on his setup. I dont think you will have a problem getting a marble to roll at the incline err decline that you need to work with. And the latching like I said earlier, can be very delicate as to not need much to release it.

This guy is very advanced in his idea yet he is still working with wood and probably not using good bearings of any sort, and the wood rubbing. Like most of my first projects were when I started. Then My Grandfather taught me a few things about friction and precision.

One thing about going bigger is that precision is had much easier.

Maggy
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:57 pm PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Harvey wrote:

What if we used spherical magnets, calculate the rolling diameter to ensure polarity (and a small tiny at the end to align it the way we want) and roll that across? Just thinking out loud here.

oc wrote
Interesting idea, then we could do the rolling with a magnetically unbalanced pendulum. I wonder how well the spere would roll?

I thought about the spherical mags rolling to the other side and at the angle we have to roll on, the sphere would probably stop due to the stator pullin on the spheres attractive pole. And having a tiny position the rotor mag, if it had enough force to rotate the sphere into place, that force may also be counteractive to letting the sphere drop and ride the wheel.

Maggin
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:03 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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overconfident wrote:
Harvey wrote:

Are you getting a `E_[GP]` with the lead balls? How much compared to an offset magnet alone?


I don't seem to be getting any gain, and it has me wondering what it was I saw the other day.

Harvey wrote:

What if we used spherical magnets, calculate the rolling diameter to ensure polarity (and a small tiny at the end to align it the way we want) and roll that across? Just thinking out loud here.


Interesting idea, then we could do the rolling with a magnetically unbalanced pendulum. I wonder how well the spere would roll?


They roll fine, but they tend to turn and line up with the earths field when they do Crying or Very sad so there would have to be a 'tiny' or something to align the pole for the pendulum swing. The issue there has to do with the perpendicular final rest to the roll axis and trajectory. No easy way to circumvent that. So it will reorient when it leaves the wheel and we must rotate it when it joins the wheel. Both require work, and the amount of work is the same as rotating the magnet in place and just letting the device do a return swing. If we can keep it from twisting as it rolls ... ah Exclamation Idea a cylinder magnetized diametrically. Its axial length is parallel to the spindle axis. Now we can have it aligned as we wish and it will roll as we wish. If we know the proper number of turns for the distance of the ramp we can have it arrive where we want by adjusting its diameter. (wrap tape around the prototype if need be to get it to match our current device). I'll bet the whipmag stator mags would do the job. So all that is left is the holder and release mechanisms to keep the poles positioned properly during the swing.

So we find that it is the same, we use the gravity to roll the magnet back to the start and swing the wheel in the same direction, or we put it on a bearing, spin it in place and swing it back the other way. How do we lock it while it spins, er swings?



Cool
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Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:04 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Harvey,

I'm thinking the only way we'll get a usable gain with the balanced magnet configuration is if we figure out what it takes to use a larger disc/pendulum, so the interactions in the upper quadrants have less cancelling effect. One thing I have considered is a longer stator magnet(s). But I don't have a larger rig to test with. Vibrator's turntable disc might be able to test that theory.

The Harvey solution of flipping the rotor magnet at highest point is starting to look like a better candidate.
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Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:19 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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overconfident wrote:
Harvey,

I'm thinking the only way we'll get a usable gain with the balanced magnet configuration is if we figure out what it takes to use a larger disc/pendulum, so the interactions in the upper quadrants have less cancelling effect. One thing I have considered is a longer stator magnet(s). But I don't have a larger rig to test with. Vibrator's turntable disc might be able to test that theory.

The Harvey solution of flipping the rotor magnet at highest point is starting to look like a better candidate.


I think it is the simple approach. I have tried an 18" Radius with 4 D48's end to end and a wide variety of stator configs. No joy. My bearing has too much play in the assembly and needs to be better configured. When I get more ambition I may revisit it.

Cool
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:19 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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jcmax did a nice classical analysis of the Magnetically Assisted Penduum. Take a look and comment as you see fit.

http://jcmax.pbworks.com/PenduSMOT

OC
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