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Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:12 pm PostPost subject: WhipMag II
overconfident
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@MADPROF,

How's things going? Have you made any recent progress? I hate to keep pestering, but there are a few of us who are very anxious to try some experiments with the new and improved devices.

If there's anything I can do that will help, please let me know.

OC
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Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:40 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC

Hi mate,

Sorry for being out of touch for so long, lets just say I'm fit and well again. Cool

Went back today, expecting chaos, but was pleasantly surprised the guys were on top of things. Made some soft jaws to finish off the sliders for the stators, which should be finished tomorrow. Stator housing should be done before end of week hopefully, then the spindles, hang in there, it won't be long now.

You asked if you could help in anyway, well I need some springs sourcing for the spindles, will let you know the specs tomorrow.

It's good to be back and doing something again.

MP
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Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:00 pm PostPost subject:
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@MADPROF,

I hope you weren't too unfit and unwell. Nice to have you active again.

Take care. Hope to hear more soon.

OC
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Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:53 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC

Things are moving again Mr. Green

Sliders and nuts are all finished now.

http://s258.photobucket.com/albums/hh279/madprof02/Stator%20slider/

You should be able to see, that I have machined a finger grove in the slider, which will allow movement of the slider while the stator is spinning.
The black line will correspond with a 1mm scale of lines on the base, allowing a +/- 5mm from Al's known datum point.

Spindles are next, we need to source some springs. I have had no luck with my suppliers, this is what we need.

Wire diameter .6mm / .024"
I/D 4mm+ to slide over 4mm spindle diameter
Free length 4mm
Coil bound 2mm

If you find out anything which is close, let me know. We need these springs before I can set the spindle heights.
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Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:59 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@MADPROF,

I don't know if I'm the best person to be providing spring information, but here goes. If you can cut them to length yourself, check the 24" compression springs at:

http://www.ashfield-springs.com/springs.html

Check out S.602 and S603

There are a number of custom spring manufacturers and also some others that don't place their catalog online. Here's one of the latter you could call to see if they have what you need:

http://www.albionspring.co.uk/products.htm

Don't know if this helps. Maybe someone else can provide better info.

OC
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Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:09 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC
Cheers, It would be better, if we could get formed ends on the springs, opposed to cutting them. The other lead is my supplier Crying or Very sad
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Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:00 pm PostPost subject:
Axle
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This looks good!!!

http://www.centuryspring.com/



----------------------------------------------------
MADPROF, Your specifications...

Wire diameter .6mm / .024"
I/D 4mm+ to slide over 4mm spindle diameter (4mm = .1575")
Free length 4mm
Coil bound 2mm

I can't link directly to the 'centuryspring.com' page I am looking at.

I'm looking at '14 items were found' after putting in some 'Compression Spring Search' numbers.

The springs I am looking at range from...
Wire Diameter of .018" to .023"
ID of .174" to .200"
Free Length of .160" to .250"
Solid Height of .070" to .140"

From the http://www.centuryspring.com/ home page, I clicked the 'Order Online' option, then clicked 'COMPRESSION SPRINGS' above the image, that goes to the 'Compression Spring Search' page. After putting in some numbers (I can't recall exactly what I entered) in the 'Compression Spring Search' I get the '14 items were found' that I am looking at.
----------------------------------------------------
The site also has a 3D-CAD image viewer that can be accessed after doing the 'Compression Spring Search'.



Here is an image of spring# S-863
ID .179" (~4.55 mm)
Free Length .220" (~5.6 mm)
Wire Diameter .020" (~.51 mm)
Material - Stainless Steel
Other specifications are included with the description.
----------------------------------------------------
(mm to inches) or (inches to mm) conversion calculator
http://mg-jewelry.com/mmtoinches.html
----------------------------------------------------


Last edited by Axle on Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:38 am; edited 12 times in total
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Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:58 pm PostPost subject:
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@MADPROF,

A catalog is available from the site listed by Axle.
http://www.centuryspring.com/pdfs/12-229.pdf

(edit: Oooops, corrected link to compression springs. Shoulda tested it earlier)
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Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:55 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC, Axle

Nice work guys.

The best spring I could find was a G-8, They have a service charge if order is less than $40. Does anyone want to give them a ring, and see if we could get 10 samples ? A bit of BS about a new product you are looking at, usually does the trick Mr. Green
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Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:58 pm PostPost subject:
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Not all stainless steels are non-magnetic. I don't know if this will make any difference in the springs.
But I thought I would remind you all, anyway.
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Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:25 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@Al

Thanks for your comments.

It is looking like I will machine the spindles in one hit, and do away with the circlip and machine a step on the shaft instead.

Q. If I reduce the amount of spindle that sticks out above the rotor insert, will this have any affect ? 55mm is a lot of unsupported length to machine at these diameters. and hold tolerances. Crying or Very sad
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Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:32 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC

I've not just been watching the Ryder Cup Wink

http://s258.photobucket.com/albums/hh279/madprof02/OC%20Whipmag%20II/

Just some turning work left to do.
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Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:44 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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MADPROF wrote:
@OC

I've not just been watching the Ryder Cup :wink:

http://s258.photobucket.com/albums/hh279/madprof02/OC%20Whipmag%20II/

Just some turning work left to do.


I'm impressed! Can't wait.

About the springs ... I've been hoping some kind and generous person would step up and volunteer to contact the company for some samples. But if they don't pretty soon, I'll do it. I'd hate to think that was the only thing keeping you from making progress. Out of curiosity, how many springs would you need to complete all the devices?

OC
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Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:40 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC

9 Springs to complete all units, 4 to get them out there, Go for it Mr. Green

Going to work on the stators housings and bearings next, to see if 5 second run down times are on. Then the spindles, I need a whole day on the spindles, so I'll do them the week after, when things calm down a bit.
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Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:06 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC

Spent ages getting a stator bearing apart, with out damaging it today.

http://s258.photobucket.com/albums/hh279/madprof02/Stator%20Bearing/

I think it might be worth running them up in a fixture, and trying to flush them with thinners under pressure so we don't damage them taking them apart.
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Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:17 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@MADPROF,

I called Century Spring. The most they would send as samples is 4. Otherwise, they have the $40.00 minimum/service charge. I told them I would check back with the machinist. Whatcha think?

OC
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Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:22 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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overconfident wrote:
@MADPROF,

I called Century Spring. The most they would send as samples is 4. Otherwise, they have the $40.00 minimum/service charge. I told them I would check back with the machinist. Whatcha think?

OC


Thanx OC, I've been swamped with stuff these past couple weeks and have about another week and a half of junk to sort out ahead of me. I'm glad someone was able to contact them. PM me with the contact info and I'll see if I can get some samples as well. (squeezing some time out here Wink )

We should try the samples before we play the minimum game. The killer is the time to get them moved around from vendor to us to Madprof.

Cheers to you guys for staying on top of this Very Happy

Cool
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Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:08 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC, Harvey

Nice going OC, four springs will get us going. I will PM you my details.

Good to hear from you again Harvey, get sorted now while you have the time, Whipmag II is so close Mr. Green
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Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:04 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@MADPROF,

I requested 4 samples of the G-8 springs. They are being sent to me via U.S. Postal Service, so I should have them early next week. I'll forward them to you as soon as I receive them.

If someone wants to try for more samples, you might want to wait a couple days. And don't mention that you need 10 of them for a "protyping project" or they're likely to recall my request. Century Springs phone number is: (213) 749-1466

OC
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Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:13 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC Cheers mate.

@Harvey & Al thought you might like this,

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1746527/jetman_official_promo/

Yves Rossy, The JETMAN

His attempt to cross the English Channel today got cancelled, so he's trying again tomorrow - Fri 26 Sept 12 noon UK time. It'll be live on Nat Geo and online at jetmanlive com Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green
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Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:48 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Well...I talked with Francis there at the spring company Rolling Eyes

I explained that our current spring we are using is ~40 Lbs / inch ( I tested it with a scale Razz ) The stats on my spring are 2.7 Lbs compressed (~1650g) at a height of .067" . Free standing its .132". .205" OD .148" ID and 3.5 Coils with ground ends.

I favor the N-75 as a close match to the original. The only thing close in dimensions that has ground ends is the Z-14 and I was surpised at the jump in Rating over the G-8. The G-8 is rated 21 Lbs and the Z-14 is 238 Lbs Shocked . Francis said its the thicker (.03mm more) wire.

So I asked for 10 samples of each spring - it was a problem. She wanted a UPS account number. I offered a call tag and she declined. She suggested that since I'm only 20 minutes away that I could will call them and if I 'Pay Cash" there is no minimum on the 'samples'. I asked her what the 'Pay Cash' was for. She paused - I said "In essence then, I drive to your counter, buy the springs and that's your idea of samples." She said well its over the minimum, can I send you 2 of each? I said no. I need 5 minum each for consistency comparisons (preferably from different lots). She said they don't keep the lots seperate. I told her I don't know why its such a problem, the springs are small - just put 'em in an envelope and mail 'em. She paused. I thanked her for her time and said I was going to shop around and that I really wasn't sure I wanted to do business with their company. She said "you know what...I'm going to send them, just let me check with the VP first. I said "you have my number, have the VP call me."

So we'll see if we get the 5 ea. - if anything. Rolling Eyes

Cheers,

Cool

ETA: Francis just called back. She got the OK to send 5 each. Very Happy
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Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:51 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@Harvey

I love your sense of humor Mr. Green made my day.

P.S The Jetman did it Mr. Green How much fun would that be?? Dear Santa Wink
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Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:58 pm PostPost subject:
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MADPROF wrote:

...
P.S The Jetman did it Mr. Green How much fun would that be?? Dear Santa Wink


Awesome!

I think he needs to work on the landing gear a bit though Very Happy

I wonder what its like to get hit by a bug going that fast Shocked

Did you see Ironman? Very Happy
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Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:42 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC, Harvey, Yada

I machined up the Stator housings this afternoon, so each replication has 10 off housings.

http://s258.photobucket.com/albums/hh279/madprof02/Stator%20Housings/

I figured you all have at least 10 stator mags if you got them from KJ’s, But do you all have the magic bearings?

Bearing test:

I cleaned a stator bearing in thinners, without taking it apart, as Al did, dried with compressed air, then fitted it to the stator housing and mag.
Quick flick………7 seconds, it even sounded right. Mr. Green Took it home, to do a video for you Wink Will now only spin for about 2.5 sec’s (Bugger) Sad
I think the thinners acted as a lubricant which was spot on, but over time evaporated and left the bearing dry. So the next step is to find a good Teflon oil.

I feel these bearings are the same as Al’s,

Q. what was the thickness of his??

Tomorrow, I will try to machine the bolts to size, for the stators Wink
Should have been a watch maker Laughing Laughing
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Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:12 pm PostPost subject:
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I am interested as to whether or not heating the bearings changes the rundown behavior. It can help us determine if wax is being left behind by your solvents. My experience with teflon oil is that it has a high cohesive drag. While it works well under pressure with high forces it seems to be a negative component for the stators. You may want to try a liquid silicone lube instead. Sonic cleaners with an alcohol bath would be ideal for drying out the bearings but are costly and not part of every lab. I've had good success using WD-40 as a grease cutter. It is also a very effective displacement fluid. (I heard once that WD stood for Water Displacement). The WD-40 can be flushed with Alcohol or Brake-Kleen to provide a dry metal.

The actual thickness of Al's bearings was a matter of speculation as the measurement tool was not accurate below 1/64" as I recall. The actual ball diameter is the more critical measurement as it changes the contact ratio and thus the harmonics.

Still no springs Rolling Eyes

I have 5 stator mags and can order more as needed.

Great job on those housings! I puzzled at first glance by the ridge down at the bottom (inverted top?) of the housing until I realized they were stacked and I was seeing the top edge of the lower housing Laughing

Cheers,
Harvey
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Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:22 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@Harvey

Heated up the bearing, and tried again, a gain of about 1 sec.
Cleaned the bearing again with meths this time, and this is close to 5 secs for now Laughing
The thinners I was given today, is top quality paint thinners for cars.

When I was a kid, we use to clean our skateboard wheel bearings in petrol, then sprinkle graphite dust into the bearings, went like the clappers Mr. Green

Might give that a try Idea use the thinners to get the graphite in.

(I heard once that WD stood for Water Displacement). It does.

Stator housings were fun to make, lots of little tweaks to keep the tooling swarf free, to allow full auto. (38 secs ea Laughing )

Will do a video of the spindle housings for sure when I get to them. Wink
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Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:57 pm PostPost subject:
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G-8 springs arrived yesterday afternoon. Posted them today first class.

Stator housings look great! My finger's getting twitchy already. Wink

I only have 5 stator magnets as well, but will definitely order more if I have some way to utilize more.

OC
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Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:33 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC

Springs are a great result, nice one. Cool

If my bearings hit the 5 sec + run down times, then I will supply 10 off ea, with ea Whipmag II, as Al's stator-bearing combo's didn't all work.

I also see another variable which might help the effect. There is more magnetic material, on one side of the bearing than the other.
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Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:18 pm PostPost subject:
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Hi all,

I got the 15 Springs in the mail yesterday, 5 ea Z-14, N-75 & G-8. The Z-14's are in fact very strong, so its not some typo. The G-8's don't feel consistent, 4 do and one feels a bit stronger. I haven't put them on a scale yet for comparisons - hopefully this evening. The N-75's feel just about right but the ID is smaller.

I'll try and get the G-8's off to you tomorrow Madprof.

Cheers,

Cool

P.S. So...maybe doing business with Century Spring is ok after all Wink
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Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:22 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@All

How do I post pictures here? Please make it Fool prof Embarassed
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