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Axle manner

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Thu May 22, 2008 6:24 am PostPost subject: Axle manner
Axle
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Static testing. rubberband thingy. [will edit whetn sober]



Edit [05/23/2008]: Darn, I did not have time when sober. Well anyways here goes.

With all the Beautiful! high speed motion camera work that Al is doing. And the 'motion analysis' that is being done here, [Great Stuff!!!]
I had the thought that some very useful data/measurements could be had from Al's device while it is not spinning. This 'rubberband thingy' is a crude way to test a torque of the AGW stator vs. the rotor magnets. This version of the 'rubberband thingy' will test only half of the rotor magnets [I have since labeled them #2,#4,#6,#8] vs. the AGW stator.

#2 = 9.7
#4 = 9.4
#6 = 9.1
#8 = 10.6

Yes it is 'crude' [altho, it may in fact detect earthquakes] but it shows me that my 'rig' is showing different 'torque readings'. My rotor magnet #8 is 'way up' at 10.6

Time for another beer. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK ALL!!!

Axle


Last edited by Axle on Fri May 23, 2008 7:12 am; edited 10 times in total
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Thu May 22, 2008 7:15 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Nice Very Happy
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Thu May 22, 2008 10:19 am PostPost subject: Re: Axle manner
Yadaraf
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Axle wrote:
Static testing. rubberband thing. [will edit whetn sober]

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Axle001/OCAL15881.jpg

I live in Southern California. Will your rubberband thingy measure earthquakes? Laughing

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Thu May 22, 2008 3:01 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Good work! I have seen some rundown times that seemed longer than baseline, using only oscillating stators. It wasn't reliably repeatable, and the difference was only a few seconds which could be chalked up to measurement error.

(BTW: I did finally invest in an inexpensive laser tach and stopwatch.)
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Thu May 22, 2008 9:39 pm PostPost subject: Re: Axle manner
Harvey
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Yadaraf wrote:
Axle wrote:
Static testing. rubberband thing. [will edit whetn sober]

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Axle001/OCAL15881.jpg

I live in Southern California. Will your rubberband thingy measure earthquakes? Laughing

Cheers Smile
Yada ..


How about Thunder and Light#%*~~~~~~~~~~~~~ZAP!...ning Shocked









[KAAA-BOOOOM!]
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Thu May 22, 2008 9:41 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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overconfident wrote:
Good work! I have seen some rundown times that seemed longer than baseline, using only oscillating stators. It wasn't reliably repeatable, and the difference was only a few seconds which could be chalked up to measurement error.

(BTW: I did finally invest in an inexpensive laser tach and stopwatch.)


Yeah...I need to do that too. And a compass. Very Happy

EDIT: And a Curta for these power failures.
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Thu May 22, 2008 9:45 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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"EDIT: And a Curta for these power failures."

LOL I think I still have a slide rule around.

Them Curta are some fun things, keep hoping to come across one with some one who does not know what it is.
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Thu May 22, 2008 10:28 pm PostPost subject:
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Unfortunately now that everybody knows how to Google, that unknown Curta is going to be really really hard to find.
I bought my early black Type II (503066) for about 400 US dollars, a couple years ago, from someone in UK, then had it overhauled/restored by TimeWise in the States for another 450 or so. It's smoooth. A bit more cumbersome to operate than a slipstick, but far more precise. I also have a later, grey II, and an early Type I, one owner (before me), in perfect condition.
I can operate the Type I with one hand, but the II needs two.
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Thu May 22, 2008 10:39 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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alsetalokin wrote:
Unfortunately now that everybody knows how to Google, that unknown Curta is going to be really really hard to find.
I bought my early black Type II (503066) for about 400 US dollars, a couple years ago, from someone in UK, then had it overhauled/restored by TimeWise in the States for another 450 or so. It's smoooth. A bit more cumbersome to operate than a slipstick, but far more precise. I also have a later, grey II, and an early Type I, one owner (before me), in perfect condition.
I can operate the Type I with one hand, but the II needs two.


I've seen them fro as low as $350 on Ebay. There is a fellow in San Fransico area that restores them it seems.
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Fri May 23, 2008 6:56 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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[05/23/2008] edit bump
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Fri May 23, 2008 10:49 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Axle wrote:

#2 = 9.7
#4 = 9.4
#6 = 9.1
#8 = 10.6


That is interesting.

Does this represent an average?
If so, how many samples were taken?

Does the meter give the same results if the rotor magnets enter from the opposite side?

What are the minimums?

Thanx Very Happy
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Sat May 24, 2008 4:18 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Harvey wrote:


What are the minimums?



Harvey

The minimum torque [AGW stator magnet vs. each of the rotor magnets is 0 (zero torque)]

After spinning the rotor and AGW stator, round and round, the
rotor and AGW stator end up stopped/stable in 1 of 16 magnetic positions.

stator N vs. rotor magnet #1 S
stator S vs. rotor magnet #1 N
stator N vs. rotor magnet #2 S
stator S vs. rotor magnet #2 N
stator N vs. rotor magnet #3 S
stator S vs. rotor magnet #3 N
stator N vs. rotor magnet #4 S
stator S vs. rotor magnet #4 N
stator N vs. rotor magnet #5 S
stator S vs. rotor magnet #5 N
stator N vs. rotor magnet #6 S
stator S vs. rotor magnet #6 N
stator N vs. rotor magnet #7 S
stator S vs. rotor magnet #7 N
stator N vs. rotor magnet #8 S
stator S vs. rotor magnet #8 N

-------------------------------------

all for now..


Last edited by Axle on Sat May 24, 2008 6:18 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Sat May 24, 2008 4:59 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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I like this.
So you have this set for the least point of force and then go up?, Then it would be at centers between magnets (least area of force due to distance from magnets and 8 positions.)

Edited out stupid mistake. LOL
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Sun May 25, 2008 9:11 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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I am [tonight] trying to define [label] the 16 'at rest' magnetic positions.
Have viewed Al's latest 'high speed' videos.



This is 'stator magnet #1 North' versus 'rotor magnet #1 South' in their 'at rest position'. [rotor clockwise]

Al...jump in here please...eventually these 16 magnetic positions will need to be defined/labeled.

They need to be 'named'...

Something like 'Stator #1 North versus Rotor #1 South'

Axle


Last edited by Axle on Mon May 26, 2008 8:41 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sun May 25, 2008 12:08 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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It is probably easier to use rotary degrees for each. IOW, for your dwg, If UP = 0 and direction were clockwise, you can say the stator is positioned at 90 relative to the rotor. If North facing up = 0 for the stator, and #1 at the top = 0 for the rotor, the above configuration would be R85 S265 for rotor and stator respectively.

Since this is entirely arbitrary you could just as easily declare a line drawn from the rotor axle through the midpoint of magnet #1 and the midpoint of the north up stator magnet, could represent 0. So in this schema, we could callout R355 S265

Using degrees gives a much more robust method of defining the relationships between the rotor and stator.

You may also read references to phase angle. This relationship also has a degree base but repeats for each magnet. Thus the rotor is divided into 8 sectors and the angle is relative only between the rotor and stator with no need to orient to the world. In this case, for clockwise rotor rotation your image would be GW stator lagging. This is because the North Pole of the stator should be pointing directly at the midpoint between 1 & 8 to be 0 sync'd, but its lagging a bit, which means the midpoints (equitorial line) will not align when they become parallel.

So in the case of phase angle, if the above dwg is the point your device comes to rest, you could call out a close approximation of #1 GW stator lagging 2. This tells us the #1S(outh) is just behind the stator North and the stator lags equitorial alignment by 2. If the stator in your dwg were flipped 180 then it would be AGW and the stator would be leading 88 (unrealistic).

At any rate, let us know the coordinate system you are using with your callouts and I'm sure we will be able to follow. Wink
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Sun May 25, 2008 4:58 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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If you can decide on an appropriate reference system, and if I am able to understand it, I will mark the rotor and stator according to that system, just in case I am able to take some additional HS vids.

In answer to CLaNZeR's earlier question: I have several of each part, but not enough to assemble more than one functioning unit at a time.
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Sun May 25, 2008 6:08 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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alsetalokin wrote:
If you can decide on an appropriate reference system, and if I am able to understand it, I will mark the rotor and stator according to that system, just in case I am able to take some additional HS vids.

In answer to CLaNZeR's earlier question: I have several of each part, but not enough to assemble more than one functioning unit at a time.


I'd like to suggest 4 small but visible dots or fine scribe marks on the top edge of the stator holder at each of the NESW axes on the stator. N and S should be aligned as closely as possible to the center of the magnetic poles on the magnet. You could use something like a scribe in proximity, the magnet will rotate and center itself so the scribe tip is pointing directly at the center of the pole.

The rotor should have distinctive marks at each end and at the center (null point) of each magnet. Another distinctive mark or line at the midpoint between magnets. Compass gradations between these major marks would be nice.

Tedious and boring, I know.
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Sun May 25, 2008 6:41 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Correct method would be to mark rotor and stator in so many degrees. Single center line of poles of stator worked with the center line. Dots might also work.

By using the center line for reference; variations may be estimated from frame to frame. I could not try this on the rotor. Just not marked well enough to get angles to the center line.

This is a normal method for a rotational item. It is due to the center of stator marked the method I used to see the slight variations (with in the limits of the HSF vids) the rotors. One with a lot of frames can see patterns even with a not so distinct line of the stator.

Lines need to be sharp on the edges and as thin as possible to be filmed. To mark each magnet, Well the normal would be to use color coding for such, and of course the center.

For them extra stator magnets to be stopped there has to be a variation in velocity at some point of the rotor. It does not seem to be showing well on the GW stator.

The primary tool to look at this thing at the moment is the HSF vids.

I if I could would see one of the Agw stator to rotor marked properly.
One of both Gw stators,
If see any thing is going on there, Individualy .

One of the Gw stator in stopped position.while running: Looking for that vibration that has to be there. Not even sure it can bee seen but might be.
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Sun May 25, 2008 10:06 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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alsetalokin wrote:
If you can decide on an appropriate reference system, and if I am able to understand it, I will mark the rotor and stator according to that system, just in case I am able to take some additional HS vids.

In answer to CLaNZeR's earlier question: I have several of each part, but not enough to assemble more than one functioning unit at a time.


I would love to see two devices running side by side. If there is anything I can do to help make that happen let me know Very Happy
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Sun May 25, 2008 10:45 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Coordinates:
Left hand rule or right hand rule? CW or CCW rotation?

IIRC Autocad places 0 on the positive X axis and then increments CCW. That took some getting used to, but I'm sure there was a mathematical reason behind it. Whereas google sketchup uses negative entries in its VCB to represent counter clockwise rotation. The point here is that there is no global standard and coordinate systems vary between fields. Aeronautics, Chemistry, Architechture etc. all use different systems.

Since most of the replicators have some experience with machine works it may be best to adopt the coordinate system common to all. Without getting into compound angles (Euler Angles) perhaps we can agree on the degrees and rotation direction common to a rotary table used in machine work.

Your thoughts?
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:43 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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This will be my last post until August. [Summer Road Trip]

You guys ROCK! I look forward to see what 'develops' here and [possibly?] with Steorn, during this summer.

----------------------------
This is a 'static test rig' idea. [a few steps up from the 'rubber band thingy']



What I am thinking here, is to get some 'numbers' i.e., A graph of the torque of a 'stationary/non rotating' stator magnet as the rotor is incrementally rotated through 360 degrees. At each 'increment' [maybe 1 rotational degree per increment] a 'digital scale'...something like this ..accuracy to 0.01g (10mg)...

http://www.toplinedigitalscales.com/catalog.php?action=124&item_id=382

...would give numbers that could be plotted onto a graph relative/coresponding to the 360 degree incremental rotation of the rotor.

The 'initial position' of the stator could then be incrementally rotated. Then the rotor, again, incrementally rotated through 360 degrees to produce another plot/graph of torque numbers.

Lots of room for improvement here..

-------------------------------------
That's all I have...for now!!
U guys have a GREAT summer....Rock On!!

Axle
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Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:18 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Hey All....

Am not sure what to do with this video (am now video-able) of mine...

http://s182.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Axle001/?action=view&current=OCAL0044.flv

This looks like a good place to 'park it'.

Axle

08/08/2008 EDIT: I should have mentioned that the 'vibration noise' at the end of the video is just my air compressor 'kicking in'. It's located on the floor a few feet away.


Last edited by Axle on Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:17 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Thanx Axle,

Could use a few more minutes of that one.

Can't really tell where the vibration is coming from Wink

Cheers,

Cool
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Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:52 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Axle wrote:
Hey All....

Am not sure what to do with this video (am now video-able) of mine...

http://s182.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Axle001/?action=view&current=OCAL0044.flv

This looks like a good place to 'park it'.

Axle


Good stuff!.

While I was up at PhotoBucket watching the video, I decided to check out your albums. Dude! Where did you get all those pics? I only remember a dozen or so.
http://s182.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Axle001/

Welcome back, how was the sabbatical?

OC
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Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:19 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Hi Harvey, Hi OC,

Harvey, I should have mentioned that the 'vibration noise' was actually my air compressor. The compressor motor started up just as I was shooting the video. That was my first video, was having a bit of fun with it.

No Acceleration to report at this time.

OC, Thanks for the good words. Feel free to look through or use anything that I have in my photobucket album. It's about 'a year full of stuff' initially inspired by Steorn, and you, and others, and AL and others..lol... My sabbatical/road trip was 'one awesome day after another', until my dog [60 lb Husky/Mix] decided he was 'pissed off' at me and and REALLY TOOK A BITE into my left wrist as I tried to pick him up, to get him back into my truck. [He was too overheated (100 degree F weather) and tired and hurting and 'pissed off' at me]. I had my wounds taken care of at a VA hospital in Sheridan WY. [tetanus shot, puncture wounds cleaned and bandaged, antibiotic pills (Amoxicillin)...etc...] As 'things' go...my dog biting me, was really kind of a positive experience. I learned alot!!!! No real harm done!!!

Anyways...I am rambling....OK...

I plan to 'keep plugging away' at this Whipmag Replication for a few more months, at least...It's FUN...

Great Stuff Guys!!! Great Forum!!!

Axle
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Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:03 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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I'm curious as to your dogs reaction after he chomped down. I was playing 'grab the rag' with my dog once and she was happy to jump up and twist and having a great time until one of her teeth hooked into the skin on the back of my wrist. She was just haning there by one tooth and it made a tear about 1/2" long. She was terrified, she knew instantly that she broke skin and kept trying to get away. I finally had to hold her shoulders between my knees and reach under her jaw with my other hand so I could get my wrist unsnagged. It didn't hurt a bit and it hardly bled at all. Just a clean open hole with the muscle showing. I looked down at her and she had laid down with her chin on the ground and she kept looking up at me as if to ask if I was ok. I smiled at her, patted her on the head and told her it wasn't her fault (which probaly sounded like "Chablis, blah blah blah OK You blah blah pat pat you go and play") and I went inside to tend to the wound. I can't stress how valueable A + D ointment is for punctures and tears. It's helped me over the years at least a dozen times and heals almost scarlessly.

Hope your wounds heal well, and your dogs pains identified and treated as well. Could be arthritis and I hear there is some sort of spray you can use on their food that helps a lot.


Neutral
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Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:39 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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I got some of those vagabonding dog stories too (was it really over 35 years ago?).

Out in the mountains of Tennessee, stopped at side of the road. Lupa (a german shepherd mix) and I hiked a couple miles into the woods, starting on a well-worn path, then taking some less traveled branches. We thoroughly enjoyed several hours, isolated from any signs of humanity (except for me). Lupa chased butterfies, investigated unusual scents, barked at squirrels and birds, having a great time.

It was getting late in the afternoon and we started back. About half way back, Lupa saw a rabbit or something and took off like a bullet. I waited, and waited, the sky got darker, I worried, I called. I was getting really worried, both for Lupa and for me. I was in unfamiliar woods, following trails that were difficult to see in the daytime, no flashlight or compass (just a pack of matches), Tennessee mountain nights can get quite cool. I was reluctant to leave the spot where I thought Lupa would most likely return. An hour or so after dark, I was collecting some firewood and searching for a safe place to build a campfire, Lupa finally returned, wagging her tail, so proud of herself.

Then I had to decide, spend the night in the woods or try to find our way back in the dark. It took about 2 hours to find our way back to the road. No pain or injuries, just a few stressful hours.
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Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:04 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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I think I need some sort of professional counseling between my dog and myself at this time.

I can't have him biting me OR ANYONE!!!
But then again... he has been my loyal bubby for 10 years.

Maybe get him on some kind of medication...as long as its not too expensive.

Harvey, Thanks, I've also heard, somewhere, about some sort of meds that are sprayed into a dog's water dish...will look into that.

All for now...

New Whipmag ideas are forming in my head .. [maybe time for a new rotor..hmmm??]

Axle
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Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:51 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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I'm working on a new rotor with new magnets.

So far So good.

I actually bought a 'Bench Top Drill Press' from Lowes. (HITACHI B13F)
It cost only $110 US bucks. (I have some 'roadtrip money' unspent)
I don't know how HITACHI can manufacture, ship, and sell, this thing for
$110. It's heavy. Lots of cast and machined parts.

I can[am] use[ing] it like a milling/router/'spinning things' machine too.

I'm having fun!!!

GREAT STUFF GUYS!!!!!

Axle




I can use it for all kinds of things.
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:39 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Working on my new rotor...made a bunch of progress...

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