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Yada Testing

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Wed May 21, 2008 12:38 am PostPost subject: Yada Testing
Yadaraf
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DAY 1

I recieved a few rigs that were built by "Bob." I've begun my testing -- finally. Twisted Evil

AGW synch was a breeze on the polypropylene rig -- the one with the "formal" spindle.

Note in the picture, that:

1. The polypropylene rotor is translucent (like Al's?). I haven't weighed anything yet.

2. The rotors include the wing-like edges, and closely resemble Al's.

3. The bearings are part of the rotor and not located on the spindle.





Let the good times roll.

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Wed May 21, 2008 12:45 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Looking goood!
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Wed May 21, 2008 12:50 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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lostcauses wrote:
Looking goood!

lostcauses

They look great and run great. Very solid.

I received one stator and need to build the others. Recall that Al says we need a minimum of three stators to achieve self-sustained rotation.

I can get by without the MKJD for now.

I'll be building the stators this evening and tomorrow.

Cheers Smile
Yada ...
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Wed May 21, 2008 1:35 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Looks good, Yada.
It does seem that your "polypropylene" photographs much like my "HDPE". As far as I know we don't have any PP in the lab scraps, but who knows at this point. I doubt if it makes any difference; I would have used Delrin if I had a big piece. Looks like "Bob" did a nice "Job", that plastic is not very nice to machine.

"Recall that Al says we need a minimum of three stators to achieve self-sustained rotation."

Umm--I'm not sure I did say that. I know I said that I was unable to get it "started" using my manual spin method unless the 2 "idler" stators were in place.
A subtle difference, but perhaps important.
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Wed May 21, 2008 1:56 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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alsetalokin wrote:
Looks good, Yada.
It does seem that your "polypropylene" photographs much like my "HDPE". As far as I know we don't have any PP in the lab scraps, but who knows at this point. I doubt if it makes any difference; I would have used Delrin if I had a big piece. Looks like "Bob" did a nice "Job", that plastic is not very nice to machine.

"Recall that Al says we need a minimum of three stators to achieve self-sustained rotation."

Umm--I'm not sure I did say that. I know I said that I was unable to get it "started" using my manual spin method unless the 2 "idler" stators were in place.
A subtle difference, but perhaps important.

Al,

Thanks for clarifying the 3-stator starting conditions. I updated the Lessons Learned.

I was aware that some investigators have reduced their systems to one stator. From what you're saying, that hasn't worked for you.

MADPROF tells me that polypropylene comes in colors. Yahoo! So many colors so little time. We're thinking it's time for a BLUE rotor.

As for polypropylene, I recently learned that some PP is doped with an anti-static compound. I don't know if the same is done with with PE. Also, the density of PP is very near that of PE, so I should be good.

Cheers Smile
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Wed May 21, 2008 1:42 pm PostPost subject: Re: Yada Testing
munchausen
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Yadaraf wrote:
DAY 1

I recieved a few rigs that were built by "Bob." I've begun my testing -- finally. Twisted Evil

I'm jealous. Tell "Bob" that I want one too.

And now it's Day 2, any progress?
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Wed May 21, 2008 6:45 pm PostPost subject: Re: Yada Testing
Yadaraf
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munchausen wrote:
Yadaraf wrote:
DAY 1

I recieved a few rigs that were built by "Bob." I've begun my testing -- finally. Twisted Evil

I'm jealous. Tell "Bob" that I want one too.

And now it's Day 2, any progress?

@munch,

We're finishing up on the plans for Whipmag II, and if you're still in the market we might have an assembly in a few weeks.[/quote]

DAY 2
Bob's rig is very interesting, and when AGW occurs I get the feeling that the rig wants to take off. You've heard this before, but you have to see it to believe it.

I discovered an issue with the tiny washer that supports the stator bearing. On my rig the washer is 5/16," and it's easy to misalign, in which case when the stator is pushed to the side (or tugged by the rotor?) there is a slight drag between the bearing and the washer. When I remove the rotor, the stator spins freely -- no matter where the washer is positioned. We're thinking that the washer can be positioned to provide a latching effect. In addition, the radial play between the bearing ID and the 4-40 screw contributes to the "misalignment" of the washer.

To my knowledge, Al never provided a measuremnt of the OD of his washer, and it's possible that he used a 5/16" washer and has the same alignment issue. I'll be playing with a few different washer sizes today.



The issue with the HDPE is interesting, because the HDPE rotor is definitely much heavier. (ToDo: accurately weigh both rotors) In January, one or two investigators complained that they had to machine a lot of material from the underside to reach Al's 258 g. The below pic gives you an idea, but I haven't weighed that particular rotor.



Lastly, aligning the stator to the rotor is somewhat subjective. Although Al has provided advice through personal experience, I can see where investigators might not have aligned their rigs to be like Al's, and I will be studying this more closely today as I attempt to optimize the rotor height.


Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Wed May 21, 2008 6:53 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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My washers are small enough to miss the outer race and the shield. Carefully chosen to do so, in fact. Also my washers are non-magnetic SS.
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Wed May 21, 2008 7:13 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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alsetalokin wrote:
My washers are small enough to miss the outer race and the shield. Carefully chosen to do so, in fact. Also my washers are non-magnetic SS.

Al,

Thanks for the feedback. The nominal 0.015" play complicates the issue with the washer, and I hope to find a washer that clears the outer race and shield under the most extreme play, which can be as bad as 0.018." In any event, to reduce invistigator frustration we'll be specifying a washer for Whipmag II -- possibly even metric SS.

Goody .. goody ... another trip to the RC shop. Cool

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Wed May 21, 2008 8:25 pm PostPost subject:
Nentin
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looking good yada have fun with it

-nentin
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Wed May 21, 2008 11:44 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Yadaraf wrote:

We're thinking that the washer can be positioned to provide a latching effect.


If you choose to do this, move the washer away from the rotor.

In my case I used #2 washers and drilled them out.
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Wed May 21, 2008 11:48 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Yadaraf wrote:

The issue with the HDPE is interesting, because the HDPE rotor is definitely much heavier. (ToDo: accurately weigh both rotors) In January, one or two investigators complained that they had to machine a lot of material from the underside to reach Al's 258 g.


http://urad.net/forums/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=12

Cool
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Thu May 22, 2008 10:12 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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Harvey wrote:
Yadaraf wrote:

The issue with the HDPE is interesting, because the HDPE rotor is definitely much heavier. (ToDo: accurately weigh both rotors) In January, one or two investigators complained that they had to machine a lot of material from the underside to reach Al's 258 g.


http://urad.net/forums/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=12

Cool

@Harvey,

Although I can see that your weight is within range, I can't tell what material you used.

.. Q: Is your rotor HDPE or LDPE?

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Thu May 22, 2008 7:54 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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DAY 3

I noticed that the rotor in the new rig is (EDIT) higher than Al's experimental preference.

Al:Third, the relative height of the stator and rotor magnets seems important. I don't know if it's because of my particular geometry or whether it is critical to the effect itself, but the magnets shouldn't be in the same plane--that is, I am getting best results when the rotor magnets are rotating in a plane that is just slightly higher than the tops of the stator magnets, rather than down and centered vertically.

The rotor height is not easily lowered, so I will be rasing the stator instead -- by almost 1/8." However, I need to add some tachs to the system in order to measure the AGW rundown time from 400 RPM (rotor) for both cases -- rotor HIGH and rotor LOW.

Current alignment -- Rotor too high:



Al's rotor-stator alignment:




Cheers Smile
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Last edited by Yadaraf on Fri May 23, 2008 1:36 am; edited 2 times in total
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Thu May 22, 2008 10:59 pm PostPost subject: Angled Rotor Magnets
Yadaraf
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EDIT: There's a back story to the video: I removed a rotor magnet for repel-testing, but when I replaced it, one side was lifted by a few millimeters. I noticed afterwards that the AGW-flipping seemed more observable at low RPMS, so I decided to exaggerate the magnet angle and found that AGW-flipping occurred more frequently. This led me to angle all of the rotor magnets such that a "prominent" sinusoidal flux pattern resulted in the vertical (Z) axis. I changed the stator height as well, so that the top of the stator was positioned at the midpoint of the rotor channel (i.e. aligned to the centroid of the rotor magnet)

What I observed was that the phenomoneon of GW-AGW-GW "flipping" appears to be exacerbated.

GW-AGW-GW-AGW...

..YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W-v8i_7x28

.. 21 MB WMV: http://yadaraf.osupews.com/movies/gw-agw-gw.wmv

Angles Rotor Magnets



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Fri May 23, 2008 2:41 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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yadaraf wrote:

@Harvey,

Although I can see that your weight is within range, I can't tell what material you used.

.. Q: Is your rotor HDPE or LDPE?


I looked at cutting boards because they are typically made of HDPE.

The data sheet only indicates polyethylene and does not give its density (which I have learned is quite arbitrary between manufacturers).

It is comprised of 3 Layers, 2 @ 1/4" and 1 @ 3/16" for top layer. The over all thickness is less than Al's but the total evacuation is less as well. I have oval pockets only in the center layer, 8 #6 holes through the thickness (occupied with nylon screws), 3/4" hole in top and bottom layers, and a 3/8" clearance hole in the center layer. The actual material was purchased at IKEA, http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20103728 . I was able to get two disks out of the larger 1/4" sheet and one out of the smaller.

Hope that helps.
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Fri May 23, 2008 7:04 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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Harvey wrote:
yadaraf wrote:

@Harvey,

Although I can see that your weight is within range, I can't tell what material you used.

.. Q: Is your rotor HDPE or LDPE?


I looked at cutting boards because they are typically made of HDPE.

The data sheet only indicates polyethylene and does not give its density (which I have learned is quite arbitrary between manufacturers).

It is comprised of 3 Layers, 2 @ 1/4" and 1 @ 3/16" for top layer. The over all thickness is less than Al's but the total evacuation is less as well. I have oval pockets only in the center layer, 8 #6 holes through the thickness (occupied with nylon screws), 3/4" hole in top and bottom layers, and a 3/8" clearance hole in the center layer. The actual material was purchased at IKEA, http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20103728 . I was able to get two disks out of the larger 1/4" sheet and one out of the smaller.

Hope that helps.

Harvey,

Thanks. Wink Very clever of you to sandwich materials. That clears up one question about your rig.

Because a few investigators had to remove material from their HDPE rotors to meet the 258 g "target", I believe at this point MADPROF and I are seriously considering polypropelene -- and it comes in colors Cool Because rotor wobble possibly contributes to Al's Whipmag effect, we should stay as close to Al's rotor characteristics as possible, including the off-center axle, etc. -- until we sort things out. Fortunately, one of my test rigs has significant rotor wobble. It would be nice to a see a side view of Al's rotor as it make a full revolution, so that we can see how much "vertical" wobble there is.

RE: Common vocabulary for Whipmag

.. Q: "Nutation" is the accepted term for circular wobble, and would you agree that "precession" is an acceptable term for vertical wobble (from the stator's POV)?

Precession



Cheers Smile
Yada..
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Fri May 23, 2008 10:13 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Precession is actually a 90 reaction to an applied force against axial alignment and the path sweeps a cone. The reaction preceeds the force in the direction of rotation by 90.

This is different from a situation where there is no applied force and the axis of rotation is relatively constant - as in the case of an axis hole not drilled perpendicular to the rotor plane. In this case all the material points in the mass of the rotor individualy follow a path perpendicuar to the axis causing a vertical runout. ETA: But the spindle and axis 'hole' remain motionless apart from true spinning on the spindle axis.

If you intend to use the term to represent spindle movement on flexible mounts where the rotor is true to the spindle then I concur completely Smile

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutation
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Sat May 24, 2008 1:57 pm PostPost subject:
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Hi Yada

Nice video mate and love the idea of showing what way the Stator is going.

Decided to drag out one of my WhipMags today and try some angled variances based on your idea above.

Some interesting results, mainly the drop out for AGW, here is a quick video.

http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRplayingwithWhipMagagainTUT.wmv

Cheers

Sean.
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Sat May 24, 2008 4:30 pm PostPost subject:
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Nice to see you back again. CLaNZeR, we were a bit worried about you since your YT videos seem to have disappeared. Glad the MIBs didn't get you!
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Sat May 24, 2008 4:33 pm PostPost subject:
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Since I believe the motion of the stators is chaotic and follows a "strange attractor" path that can be mathematically described as a type of Julia set, I propose it be called:

Julia-blation

But since that is rather clumsy, I'll go for

JUBILATION!!
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Sat May 24, 2008 7:23 pm PostPost subject:
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alsetalokin wrote:
Nice to see you back again. CLaNZeR, we were a bit worried about you since your YT videos seem to have disappeared. Glad the MIBs didn't get you!


The Videos are still up on site, so not a problem, not all is lost LOL

Thanks for the concern though, appreciatted Smile

Been trying to find a balance in life and doing family stuff, but the urge gets too much when entering the workshop Very Happy Very Happy

Remember you are NOT Mad, it is the rest of the world that is !
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Sat May 24, 2008 8:38 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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CLaNZeR wrote:
Hi Yada

Nice video mate and love the idea of showing what way the Stator is going.

Decided to drag out one of my WhipMags today and try some angled variances based on your idea above.

Some interesting results, mainly the drop out for AGW, here is a quick video.

http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRplayingwithWhipMagagainTUT.wmv

Cheers

Sean.


Thanx ClaNZer, those vertical rotor magnets tweaked my math vectors in my head and now brain doesn't work anymore Mad Mr. Green

Great video bud Very Happy

Did you see my comic post for Quinns Egyptian Fulcrum?
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Sat May 24, 2008 8:46 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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alsetalokin wrote:
Since I believe the motion of the stators is chaotic and follows a "strange attractor" path that can be mathematically described as a type of Julia set, I propose it be called:

Julia-blation

But since that is rather clumsy, I'll go for

JUBILATION!!


Ok...first I see vertical rotor magnets and then I look at that - I have to go outside and look at some birds and trees for a while and ponder my nebulous mobiusistical transistance. Shocked
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Sat May 24, 2008 8:52 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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CLaNZeR wrote:
Hi Yada

Nice video mate and love the idea of showing what way the Stator is going.

Decided to drag out one of my WhipMags today and try some angled variances based on your idea above.

Some interesting results, mainly the drop out for AGW, here is a quick video.

http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRplayingwithWhipMagagainTUT.wmv

Cheers

Sean.

CLaNZeR,

Great video, mate, but I couldn't tell if you also raised the stator height like I did. I aligned the TOP of the stator to the CENTER of the rotor channel, and hence to the "centers" of the rotor magnets. In any event, you apparently saw and heard what I did.

Al has said that in order to "start" the Whipmag there needs to be three stators in place. I hope to build the rest of my stators and then try the angle experiment again, including a "square wave" pattern and playing with stator height. Instrumentation is an issue that I hope to resolve soon

.. Stators: http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3658#3658

June 20th here we come Smile

Cheers Smile
Yada ...
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Sat May 24, 2008 9:01 pm PostPost subject:
CLaNZeR
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[quote="Harvey"]
CLaNZeR wrote:
Thanx ClaNZer, those vertical rotor magnets tweaked my math vectors in my head and now brain doesn't work anymore Mad Mr. Green

Great video bud Very Happy

Did you see my comic post for Quinns Egyptian Fulcrum?


LOL Harvey

I did see your take on the Fulcrum before I buggered up the forums.

Very good and true representative, but the secret is in the reset, that apparently is very simple and on it's way for the 20th!!!

We shall see mate Smile

Back to the Whipmag, I was actually surprised that I got AGW with the magnets vertical, as they are now in theory N time space, S Time Space ect etc, where as before they were N-S time space, S-N time space.
The Rig runs much smoother and longer wind down times by a fraction.

Interesting stuff.

Cheers

Sean.
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Sat May 24, 2008 9:18 pm PostPost subject:
CLaNZeR
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[quote="Yadaraf"]
CLaNZeR wrote:

Great video, mate, but I couldn't tell if you also raised the stator height like I did. I aligned the TOP of the stator to the CENTER of the rotor channel, and hence to the "centers" of the rotor magnets. In any event, you apparently saw and heard what I did.
Cheers Smile
Yada ...


Hi Yada

My Stator top of the magnets were about a 3rd lower with the top of the Rotors in flat mode as such. Not half way but more to the top if that makes sense.
It seems about right for getting AGW around 400-450 RPM.

I did have a couple of Eureka moments today when away from the Tacho where the Rig sounded like it speeded up, but back in front of the Tacho it did not show Sad

Maybe we are back to the observer scenario
http://www.whatthebleep.com/trailer/doubleslit.wm.low.html

Cheers

Sean.
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Sat May 24, 2008 9:25 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Quote:

I did have a couple of Eureka moments today when away from the Tacho where the Rig sounded like it speeded up, but back in front of the Tacho it did not show

Maybe we are back to the observer scenario


Too bad the tacho wasn't on the stator, it would have probably matched what you heard Wink
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Sat May 24, 2008 10:15 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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[quote="CLaNZeR"]
Yadaraf wrote:
CLaNZeR wrote:

Great video, mate, but I couldn't tell if you also raised the stator height like I did. I aligned the TOP of the stator to the CENTER of the rotor channel, and hence to the "centers" of the rotor magnets. In any event, you apparently saw and heard what I did.
Cheers Smile
Yada ...


Hi Yada

My Stator top of the magnets were about a 3rd lower with the top of the Rotors in flat mode as such. Not half way but more to the top if that makes sense.
It seems about right for getting AGW around 400-450 RPM.

I did have a couple of Eureka moments today when away from the Tacho where the Rig sounded like it speeded up, but back in front of the Tacho it did not show Sad

Maybe we are back to the observer scenario
http://www.whatthebleep.com/trailer/doubleslit.wm.low.html

Cheers

Sean.

Hey Sean,

I love Dr. Quantum. Very Happy WhatTheBleep was fantastic. It converted a few of my friends who were on the fence.

Flatland is one of my favs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4

I wish that "intentions" were all there were to it, but I'm not that gifted (yet). Maybe I'll have better luck in a few years, after more of my DNA has been activated. Laughing Laughing

Something else that I need to do before I go much further is to place the rig on a sheet of steel -- possibly even grounded. I'm currently using a counter top, and god knows how many nails and other ferromagnetic objects are hidden nearby.

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Sun May 25, 2008 3:43 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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CLaNZeR,

As I recall you are using high precision bearings. Lo-quality bearings might demonstrate the AGW flipping better.

We're now considering that lo-quality, dry bearings might bind slightly as they are tugged by the fluctuating magnetic force of the rotor. Of course, with angled magnets there is more fluctuation, and it's possible that the bearings bind more easily. I believe that MADPROF has suggested that the binding might act as a latch, leading to self-sustained rotation.

Cheers Smile
Yada..
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