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Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:45 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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The magnetic connection between the stator and rotor in AGW is so fragile that it barely could hold against the moment of inertia ever present in the the rotor. You probably noticed that during the video I had to advance the rheostat by single windings and wait for the connection to accelerate the rotor ever so slowly. Adding the MOI of the other two idlers would have made the process nearly impossible.

This video and this one show rotor motion with the rotors being driven by an external magnetic source. At one time Running Bare also had a Newman motor driving a variant rotor he had. So the concept of driving the rotor magnetically has been readily established.

Looking at the evidence as provided by Madprof and Alsetalokin we can see that the rotor is able to 'overdrive' the stators, meaning that the stators will rotate and RPM values higher than the rotor. In a fluctuating field as is provided by the magnetic drives previously mentioned, AGW becomes possible. In addition to the close proximity drive of the rotor to the stator, we also see that the fluctuating field of the external magnetic drive also can be aligned with the AGW stator pushing it at a higher harmonic.

The Tri-Meter tests that Al did also indicate that a drive system may have been present. It is not impossible to reconcile Al's knowledge of a drive mechinism with his statement that he did not know where the energy was coming from. One may argue that a magnetic drive was in place and was powered from the wall socket but that the power company may have used power from any number of multiple generators and thus Al could truthfully state that he did not know 'where' the power was coming from. It is not uncommon for puzzle creators to purposely make misleading statements to throw the solvers off track. Only the careful solvers will spot the technicalities and search for a truthful reconciliation. In some cases a puzzle creator will purposely deny himself critical information so that even under questioning he will have 'plausible deniability'. Also, we should consider that the character 'alsetalokin' as represented may be quite different from real person behind the character. While the real person may be one of integrity and honesty and those traits become apparent in the character as well, it does not mean that the writer may have a purposeful flaw in the character that breaks those barriers. IOW, alsetalokin may be capable of lying while the man behind the curtain would never dream of it.

In view of these things, one must carefully answer whether or not the WhiPMag has been scientifically analyzed by the replicators. Or have we hopped about exploring different things we find interesting, possibly overlooking the answer in the process? What have we not done? What did we say needs to be done? What is the best approach (short of cheating and asking the teacher for the answer) to proving the function of the device? My tests 'seem' to have proven that the stator cannot drive the rotor as shown in the original video, but my tests do not rock the stator the way it does when floating. So a combination of my "New Approach" and the "Powered Stator" may describe more fully, the actual events of a stator driven system. Obviously the issues have not been scientifically analyzed.

Each person must determine for themselves how much of themselves they are willing to invest in solving a puzzle that declares MPMMCPW. How did he make the video? I ask myself regularly if I can reproduce the same imagery and sounds that the first video demonstrated and must openly admit that although it would not be impossible to do, the task would be an arduous one. Particularly the time frame of the acceleration. If the rotor was driven magnetically off screen, then it must be a variable speed motor. But if the rotor was driven by a small motor and battery on the underside of the unit, then its power rating may cause it to behave similar to the video. The problem with the small internal motor is that Al would definitely have known where the energy came from without any doubt.

But then of course, there is always the real possibility that this truly is an artifact that is yet to be reproduced and Al truly doesn't have a clue as to why it does what it does. Sounds kinda funny when you read it back, but hey, could be Mr. Green

Let me know if there is any specific test you want me to do.

Cool
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Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:27 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Analyzing the whipmag not in working condition would be worthwhile more, after analyzation of the(or a) working model. Not working, what do we compare it to?

I get ideas of why the Almag works. Not that they are so, but they are plausable.

Your right. We could just keep fiddling, hoping for gold. But if I have an idea, like the double bubble, the shifting MIDDLE, the rotor chain that can be broken by an idler passing a rotor mag, etc. , then I give myself a direction for thought.
I think about the timing of when each idler passes a rotor mag and how it might affect the bubble chain. Then I look at the relationship of where the agw stator is in the bubble and while its in the bubble, how the idlers affect that bubble and how it might relate to the focused field area that the mag film shows.
It just keeps me in a general area of direction while adjusting, changing, checking.

Now if I believe any of what I think, then I have to also believe that the agw stator may have an incredible amount of chain bubble effects, that my ideas may be the other way around, and the idlers may be the shifting middles motive base and the agw makes the major chain breaking.
Or, it works both ways. Who knows.
I think there has been quite a bit of analyzing going on. We do have a lot of data.
And more will be gathered. Getting 1 or more units working needs to happen.

Who knows. Maybe next week I will have an idea that the stators are connected to eachother through a pretzel shaped magluv triangle and that the rotor is driven through the inner dimples created by bearing dust. Mr. Green

I am considering ordering a ceramic bearing to see what one might see. 90 bucks.
Dry no oil.

Hang in there Harvey. We need ya. Wink

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Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:17 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Playing with the vibration this can do on the rotor i find that a lot of push pull happens to it the mount is loose enough. Since the fly wheel also has an effect to stay in it rotational plain this is another torque that has to be accounted for. It also accounts for the why of rotor magnets to the stator, idlers... that was stated.
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:35 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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lostcauses wrote:
Playing with the vibration this can do on the rotor i find that a lot of push pull happens to it the mount is loose enough. Since the fly wheel also has an effect to stay in it rotational plain this is another torque that has to be accounted for. It also accounts for the why of rotor magnets to the stator, idlers... that was stated.


Sorry? You mean the height relationship?
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:16 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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"Sorry? You mean the height relationship?"

Yes on that and just what lifting and pulling the stators, idlers can do to such.

Loosen the screws on the shaft mount, with grommets under it. I just seated and turn em back 2 turns.
This in the very slow will show some of the stuff going on. Of course the flywheel in motion counteracts such, and there are speeds that phase into it causing it to be more observable.

yet it shows that the effect is easily over come by RPM of the rotor. So what does that do to the torque?? at until a velocity (rpm), is reached the push pull to the plain of the rotor will have some effect.

Question is can it be phased to a gain for the rotor??
In other words a push pull cycles with of course AGW, Which has an interesting effect to this in rotor momentum: cause a gain due to the torque of the fly wheel to resist the change in the plain of rotation??
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:48 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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You will be interested then in knowing that my recent tests with 3 locked stators and all rotor magnets running the same way around the rotor produces an effect that can be seen where the rotor lifts and lowers on the spring due to harmonic oscillations. The vertical movement is almost imperceptible, but is quite noticeable when using a reflection reference along the outside edge. The test is repeatable.

Next I should remove the stators and dampers and see if the oscillation disappears to rule out any air pressure anomoly.

Cheers,

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Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:59 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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In other words can I off ballance a fly wheel in motion with three items and cause such to exert a gain in the velocity of the fly wheel.

It is what I am down to as the were of any energy coming from. If so how much travel due to such vibration can produce what energy to the fly wheel.

call it introducing a wobble in the proper phase to the fly wheel.. Say from under it.

AGW in this will causes a pull down, and when it goes to push it will cause a lift. Depending on the positions of the idlers, this can cause a shift in the direction of the rotation
When I look at the charts of timing for Als device this gets interesting to the two idlers in both motion and stopped.
were as trying to set up timing magnetically to a drive, I find that the motion and stopped create a large conflict in timing.

Magneticaly the timing is incorrect, to a wobble drive of the rotor, it may be good.

LOL we may need the change this to the wobble mag...

When I got the original, I stated the bottom bearing has a lot of slack to the rotor shaft housing. The bearing out side race moves freely in the thing. Al said it was supost to be that way. It also suggests that this type of action may be going on..

In the three dimension view of the rotor and stator magnets, the lift and pull of them to the rotor plain may be necessary to look at.

think ot it as the plate spinning on a stick..

I am rambling a bit today... Yet it is a question that may have some thing to do with all of this.

If this is a good part of the third effect, I can thing of better mounting for the spindle for such, lol.

It does account for the timing of Al's set up, and his claim of position of the stators, idlers to rotor magnets..
It accounts for the claim of the higher the rpm for GW in motion to less drag, over what I am looking for in the slip game of the magnets also..

As I said folks reading this I am rambling. Yet evidence may support this idea....I think I need to go read a bit on this.
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:28 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@Lc

If you use really wobblely stator bearings it gets better also.
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:40 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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MADPROF wrote:
@Lc

If you use really wobblely stator bearings it gets better also.


It's interesting anyway, don't know about better.

I have tried mounting my stators on top of some small grommets and used the nylon screws to screw the stator bearing down just snug to the top of the grommets. Lots of wobble with that.
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:45 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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I suppose it may resemble the plate of a Michell motor, only the plate rotates.
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:45 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Gyro stat , or a toy called power ball.
And yes Harvey instead of the vibration of the plate, vibrating on the rods, the magnets cause the motion and and the angular velocity of the spinning plate ( its tendency to stay in the plain of rotation as the force) force it to move, the pendulum effect of the magnets is the drive of the rotor with its vibration being in the proper phase to the rotor.
Still we have a lot to over come with this. As I have said, I can get the magnets to get close to there push pull and the drag of rotor, to close rundown times, the question is can enough force be provided by the fly wheel to drive the whole mess to a gain..
Ah noting like complicating the whole thing, LOL


Yet it fits this device to damn well. even at a right angle to the earth this would work.

If such is the play of this device, then it may be easier to used a different mounting for the rotor spindle to archive such. I suspect it would not take much to set up up a spring so that the tension on it could be easier to adjust than a three point system.

An interesting concept going on.. Yet be a bit skeptical folks.. Its still one of them things of force in to force out.. Energy in verses energy out.... Yet it is fitting the game.. Hmmmm
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Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:28 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Ok today games.
One get an input force better than my hand flip. So a rubber band, Ok not scientific, but better than my hand flip game.. LOL
run down on it, 9min 43 sec, 9 min 45 sec...
Next a idler in locked position. 6 min, 05 sec.. Or so.....
Ahh with two idlers,
locked with pole in, Start of 6 min 12 sec or so, Start adjusting the offset of them, Improvement, Finally get up to 7min 20 to 40 sec. Better..

So the third, Still playing with it, up to 7 min, not an improvement, LOL
Hmm may take this back down to four rotor magnets,

Will have to play with em vibrating, and of course spinning, I expect a loss in these positions..

So far all leads me to exterior driven rotor...
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Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:57 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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For this device to work, it has to be getting energy back to the rotor, in the wost possible areas, GW in motion, and gw stopped and unlocked.
I can see causing a shift in the motion, yet how to use the vibration of the stopped is a question.

still undecided
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Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:56 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@LC

The vibration from the stators might be affecting the spindle screws, transferring that to the spindle. Do you remember Harvey's acceleration rotor with no stators? Confused
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:47 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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"Do you remember Harvey's acceleration rotor with no stators?"

Not sure what to think on that one..
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:54 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Refresh my memory... Confused
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:08 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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I don't know Harvey, May have been one of the rundown things.
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:00 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Perhaps the Air Drive?

Has anynone been able to map the resitance reduction chart with their rigs? I haven't tried charting it the way Al did yet, in fact I have to go back and read how he did it.

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Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:33 am PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@Harvey

Top of page 12......... WhipMag II thread. Wink
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:22 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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"resitance reduction"
In GW motion, and stopped this will be due to the vibration of the idlers to RPM.
The force from the unequal magnetic fields works mostly on them idlers. Of course in a equal and OPPOSITE action to what would be good for it.
The faster the rotor is turning, the less motion of the vibration happens.

LOL That Opposite thing is even why AGW works.. Of course it comes out a loss in itself..
Every thing so far it against the thing, as would be expected. The stator takes most of the motion, (Smaller torques to make it move.) Of coarse motion is against keeping it in motion so far..
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:19 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Here again playing with this thing, I can not ay it can not be done as was shown.
Yet to replicate such, information such as velocity changes, the why of each time AGW drops out, etc would have to be done.

Best tool for such would be a system to track each item to what it is doing.
I simply do not have such, and am back down to speculation.. Not facts..

As far as I can tell if the rotor gets to much velocity change it will cause a failing of agw. Same goes for the stator. Such is the problem with this device.


With out being able to track what is going on with what I do, I have no way to say what is going on.

I will continue to speculate, The aspect of the rotor magnets higher than the stators idlers inputs an interesting aspect of hitting the walls that cause such to try and shift the angle of velocity. A rise and fall aspect to the rotor.

Reality is that with out the information, I can not get at this time: This is a wash.. The why of my AGW drop outs..

Yet I am missing some thing even in the three stator idler thing (locked),
I should be seeing, ......
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:24 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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MADPROF wrote:
@Harvey

Top of page 12......... WhipMag II thread. Wink


Oh yeah...now I remember, thanx Very Happy

I'm pretty sure this was a sudden reduction in load which then was quickly added back. As mentioned, the rundown curve resumed afterward. There is a force pushing against the momentum and when it disappears momentarily the momentum will accelerate the rotor so that the momentum matches the `E_k` with low resistance. It is similar to the acceleration that occurs when weight is moved from the outside of a rotating flywheel to the inside, conservation of angular momentum.

Now I have a new one. With all my stators locked in a specific position and all rotor mags positioned in the same direction, I have six magnets that when the maximum tension is applied at the 'top of the hill' and the rotor is released, will go to the bottom of the valley and never get out. But two of the magnets are different. One will crest 3 more hills. The other will crest 6. What alerted me to this, is that at the end of some rundowns the rotor would come to a complete stop, reverse and pass 6 magnets in the other direction. Obviously this appeared to defy physics and I began looking for the reason for this intermittent, yet reproducible. At one point I was even suspecting the E-field of two nearby D-cell flashlights as having some impact. After digging into it a bit I found the differential of the one magnet and was able to repeat it with 90% results (9 out of 10 tests resulted in bypassing 6 magnets).

But if this were a single magnet and the test is relative to S3, then it should be symmetrical and repeatable in the CW direction as well. It's not. In the CW direction it reacts just as the 6 magnets do, one valley & trapped. All of the magnets exibit this single valley behavior when tensioned to the left of S3. After a bit of experimentation I realized there is a flat spot, a mesa on top of the 'hill' with a small dip in it, the rotor is at equilibrium here and the magnets are favoring a position just to the right of S3. So I repositioned things to be absolutely symmetrical. This configuration still favors a counter clockwise overrun from that one magnet in tension.

I can't make any claims on this, but it appears that it is possible to effect a nonconservative field through a series of positions and strengths of permanent magnets that result in a 'one-way' action.

I would like to know if other WIIM (WhiPMag II Members) have experienced this or can reproduce this with their rigs.

Cool
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:53 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Harvey,
With the two idler position I can get excellent rundown times. Reason for such is the way they follow the game. If one is offset to the other at the correct angles, it will show an over all gain from any position of the first one.

With three I can not get such a position.. Note did not try very hard.. Such may be able to be done to some other location than given.. It would not have worked in the slot we are given for AGW to the others. I doubt given it would not be in the correct position for the other two, that three items will in locked position show much of a rundown over two. If four was used, I can see such.


It is an offset of the center of rotor magnet positions.

The Slot for S3 to the others is a bad position for them idlers, stator other than maybe AGW. ( so far even for AGW).

It might have been an intuitive position for such, ( pole center in position) to the idlers in a good position of over lap, yet in reality it is not.
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Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:37 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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LOL lost a post.
Was looking over the system to see were the system that can set up any were gain can occur in it. It still comes to the rotor magnet centers and the dual connection between the magnets, or in the case of same in, the push.

Need to do a field view of the all like positions..

This also is interesting to the magnet spacing in the rotor on this. Further apart one would get less initial secondary connection, and closer together it would be more. Again magnet strength should go the same way.. Rotor magnets that is..

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l408/lostcauses10x/P1050160.jpg
It does raise some interesting questions..
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Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:40 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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So today I set mine up for long rundown times. Of course I have to go way out to do such. What I look for in this is the balance of the push pull to my normal rundown times.. In theory, this is a position I should get close to equalization of force in to force out, with little magnetic drag.
Note 00:00 is min and sec...

Best so far is 11: 03. Such as 10:49, 10:52 etc

Doing a "no item" (rotor only) rundown test now.
Note: it can take 10 seconds for a revolution at the low end of this.. Maybe more.. First 11:17; 11:16 second run.. 11:15 third run. Hmm my disassemble and raising the height may have lost me a minute in run down time... Again no real way to use a direct input force to scientific value..


Reason for doing this is to see were such can be done, And to see how close I can get to such. If such as this can not be done there is no way such as Al,s effect could be done. To be be honest, I never expected such close times.. 20 sec is damn good for such a device. All the idlers stator are with in the outside of them 1 3/4 inches of the out side of the rotor :Al three of them used:. I would never have believed such a balance. Even to me this much is unexpected.. Please note: all idlers, stators are in locked position. No loss to that vibration..


As for Al,s he was working on the aspect of best rundown times to rpm in gw motion, (or maybe vibration); it seems.

Yet when examined so far with the magnets I am using, and watching what I can from others, I encounter one problem with Al,s

What the hell are them rotor magnets?? They are not a normal thing it seems. Reason I say this is the distance chosen, and the action he claimed to get when one in AGW. If it is a real effect, (My test here say it may be possible) it has to do with them rotor magnets.

I would love to see some iron filing views of them. Of course at different sides of the magnet, including different locations on the cylinder.

One possible is a filled tube magnet.. Some magnetized arrangement etc..

Were as I could be wrong about this, I don,t see just the spacing to strength being able to do what is shown.. Yet.....

I may just plain be missing some thing, yet my instincts say the thing is real, with an unknown element.. So far that is the rotor magnet.

LOL one could wounder if the coating has anything to do with it, but I consider that unlikely..

So what the hell are them rotor magnets on Al's???


Changed 1/2 to 3/4 in a measurement..
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Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:51 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Hi LC
Maybe a simple device could be made with a spring and a magnet (reverse polarity for every other one) to measure the bubble areas to check for equality. It could be a way to do minor adjustments on the rotor magnets in the slots.
A lil balancing act.

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Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:14 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Well now having played with the GW in motion, unless evidence comes in such as video that shows me how such can become a gain.

I don't find one... So what can be causing the rotor to be driven?
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Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:19 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Steorn readers I am the one that found the logo for the original bearing that were sold to alsetalokin as some other brand.

A simple mistake by a person in a electronics surplus store to think they were Stewert Warner just due to the SW logo.

Damn I wish they would let me post over at Steorn, Most likely best if I don,t, LOL.

I will also vouch for him purchasing and shipping original spindles out.. Not some thing a fraud usually does..

Damn I wish they would let me post over at Steorn, Most likely best if I don,t, LOL.
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Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:50 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@lostcauses,

Take it from me, and Al, and Harvey ... its best that you don't! Wink
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Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:11 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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OC

LOL I am watching it and laughing at both sides of the mess.

Does not seem much has been done with the thing at all, witch I find interesting in itself. A lot seems to have been leaked over time..

Amusing mess it is.. Yet to be honest it does not add much credibility to Al.. It is a very good motive for a fake...

Yet I have some doubts to the whipmag being fake.. Ahh well I can be gullible with my own time and money, if it were some one other than mine: I would say no damn way... LOL
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