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Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:21 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Height of rotor is critical in this effect.
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:36 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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going back over the video is that two flipped positions in it. Very interesting indeed.
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:49 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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new to me (Used NASA surplus) torque gauge showed up. with my magnets all the way out the highest torque is 1.5 oz. in. or just under with some, at the long mark it 3 to 2.75.

Interesting. Some under .25 oz in. will be a problem as this will not cover them.

What measurements do you want???
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:27 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@LC,

Could you post some pictures or a video of the torque gauge and how you are using it?

Thanx,
OC
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:06 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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OC it is a simple device that is supposedly calibrated to a spring in it. calibration date on this one is old.

Since torque is to the center of rotor, I placed it on the shaft of the rotor.

A game of leverage also comes into play with this.






It wold be great if Al had one of these laying around the lab, Talk about a good measure on the magnet relation.

I use a stick for now for the stator torque.
The photo has the rotor raised. torque reading on the wall is under 2.75, or about 2.7

So from this I can insert a stick in the stator and find its wall reading. It gives just under.50 or .49.

As you can see a small torque on stator is a large torque to rotor.
This was done at the center line mark and further out would be difficult to get good readings of the stator torques... will be looking for a gauge for that, LOL.

Since the real shifts in torque are to the magnets, I will need some very weak torque readings on them to get a valid game of what it is.

Edited to put decimal in correct place.
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:32 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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in other words a torque of .49 ox in pust a torque on rotor of 2.7 oz in. This is the wall.

Now think of the locations of these places and how they will need to be placed to be overcome with this system. We have three of them at this max with the present set up in my system.
One may think that the AGW may be less, yet it will be close to this. Play with such from the videos of position I get about a (redoing this one) Still get about .49 .50. difficult to get such readings.
need to correct the post above this one, read wrong scale, lol
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:29 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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strangly enough testing the normal idler in motion, the strong lock point is the other side of were one would think it is. as the rotor comes in, it is about .50 to go past rotor magnet. It goes to a lock position of about .70 to free it from that position. Interesting, I would not have think that.


If the rotor is going clock wise this is the strongest position to get away from.

I takes less force counter clock wise than clock wise.
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Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:34 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Added to the post above this one. To close to rotor the position described abouve is a drag. Far enough away from rotor, this position is changed in the direction of rotation so it will be less of a drag. One could feasible put it into the position of going into a gain, yet it does slip to a stoped position fast when doing it. To much slip per say.

Just going over the original ideas, and trying to find were a gain from this might happen with one in the opposing direction (AGW).
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Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:20 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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The main spin HSF vid is a good show of action I am contemplating. A great deal of it shows the pole entering into the center of the rotor magnets. A position that must be obtained to be able to show a gain in the system as we are shown in the original video.

This again shows a need for distance between magnets to be correct. This is due to the small gain to the up coming magnets to over come the AGW action against the rotor, and a major loss to the AGW action. ( after center, when it goes into a large push against.) The main reason we see a loss in AGW.

There is also a position to AGW that has to be done. The small gain side of the push off of AGW has to be such it will allow the pull down of the stator to pass a position of lock.

This all is one tight balance game. If it can be done. LOL every time I try and disprove it I find an area that could. NUTZ.

If I was only better at math, ahhhhh. And still need anoughter toque gauge to get the smaller ones to see the changes... An interesting thing of torque and leverage. An interesting, ( and dificult ) proplem this is.
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Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:15 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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By the way if this is fake, the rotor is driven. All info we have been given is to that end. I don,t know how to do such for them that believe it is a fake.

As for the Gw action it appears by the main spin video about one in three to a slip by to good position. One can ass-ume this is also what goes on with the other ones.
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Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:20 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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A problem with all of this is the simple thing of the Internet.

Is it real.

Whipmag OCPMM: An interesting event of one man using a conversation of another creating an event that science says can not be done.

I have witnessed a great deal of such devices through the years in a great many forms. I can easily discount them with ease. Yet with all my trial and error this one I can not, nor can I replicate it.

Simply put I do not have the knowledge to do so. Thus meaning the math and tools to measure such a device.

Everything I could normally discount such an item with has failed me, to the contrary I can show with out math that these areas can be countered in a way that could be usable in such.

It is a device that is in my opinion a driven rotor acting upon stators in such a way as for a time to keep it going. What drives it could be two things and a combination of them. Magnets and or vibration of said magnets. Normally I can show such devices have a wall that can be stopped easily and will not be over come by other actions. A wall so to say. In this device it is such walls do exist, yet I can show were the possibility to pass them with torque from the stators may be able to be done. Yet to be able to calculate the correct patterns of positions and lengths and weight to the magnets, rotor stators involved is way beyond my capacity.

I have to say this situation as shown on the Internet of the whipmag has some credibility.
It easily could be fake: and if so is the most thought out one I have ever seen.

Again with this situation I have never seen the person involved to not ask for money, and even find and give away one of the vital parts.

Yet again following the evens across boards i could use what was said at times, and even provide motivation for faking of such an item, I can not discount it.

Now the point I am getting to. over all science says that such can not be done. The folks that should be able to say with the math and knowledge to calculate the true variables of such even with the chaotic problems of such, will probably never do so.

I am know beyond my capacity, and will know have to do some learning on my own of such things, this is due to the way of the system is.
I see validity to all the claims and can reproduce all but one. I can not discard that one. I have tried to do so.

LOL a simple looking device that easily should be able to be disproven, and it can not be, yet the system due to saying it can not be will do so. A toy that shows an idea against the system. easy to ignore, and so far difficult to prove or disprove.

Why do I even say any of this?? Well I hope some one with more knowledge can and might just take up such a task. LOL Yet why would some one that could even do so?? I can not give a good reason to such, yet for some reason an old toy of old comes to mind. A siple wire touching mercury that would revolve around a magnet. What has such given us today.

alsetalokin, I would urge you to give up one rotor magnet if possible to some one who can get it to a lab to get measurements on it. It is the single most unknown variable of this thing.

You may have given up on this thing, yet if some weak artifact is driving it, that in itself may turn out to be important. Hey you did run a prop with it. If some vibration is driving this, just how much is needed, etc..

What will I do, I will continue to give it some thinking, and tinkering. Such will take time. I still would love to discount it but I can not. To me that means some thing. This is the first item in ten years I could not find easily what was really going on over what was though and said to be going on. Even if it is only a toy it has my interest due to such. I simply can not say what is going on in the video.
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:05 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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I do find the RPM of 1250 and interesting clue as to the operation of this thing. Wink
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:21 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Every day that I complete playing, testing, changing things with the whip, I get doubts. I have had a few suprizes in certain functions of the device but no cigar.
But the next day I seem to have a new view of hope, and I continue on.
This device, for how simple it may seem, is very complex, especially where precision is concerned. As LC mentioned, he has nill to discount the apparent working device. But nor does anyone have a clue as to accountment. I hope thats a word. Confused

I was able to do some experiments with idlers that might be tough for you guys, such with positions. I used 2 ilders, 1 at normal distance to the rotor, and the other just out from the first about an inch. The inner one was locked. I was able to get gw on the outer stator only with the locked one in place. remove the locked stator and I could not achieve gw with the second due to its distance.

But as LC says, I dont have(or does anyone?) proper equipment to tell if the rotors affect on the outer stator is going through the locked stator or around it.
I can only guess. But I do know that it is getting there.
If anyone is interested in the effect I will do a vid.

As for Al, I have some questions for him, but from what I see latly, I don't believe I would be given such the time of day. From some here I feel ignored. Some I consider friends. Wink

Even though my unit is a par different from what you all have, I do get some simular results. One reason I have gone a bit different is that so far, copies are not coming up productive. So just as Al's device and vid had gotten to where we think it is, my unit could very well do such, as could many other deviant devices we have seen trying to achieve the same or close.

Lets say Al did give the working unit to one of you. What would be done to find the nature of how it works? Just as we have non working units and not a clue, how would any of us be able to find out how the working one really works? If it were sent to a university, would that do us any good? Would they divulge it to any of us? In fact they would most likely toss or hide it for sake of everything they know to be, maybe. Confused I'm not sure any university would be willing to have an uprising against what they have been teaching for years. Nobody wants to be told they were wrong. Just my experience.

All we can do is push on till we can't take it any longer, or till it is atained. Also I don't wish to discourage.

I just want ya to know Lc, I feel the same as you at times. It is as hard to drop as cigarettes, but every once in a while, we think about quitting.

It has been a longer trek for all of you than me. I can't say its quiting time yet.

I still believe in the chain idea that Oc presented. As the rotor spins, the field around it(all the way around it) can be changed by interference of an idler or agw stator. It may not be that the shifting MIDDLE is a motive force on the agw, maybe its the other way around. I would venture to say that an AGW stator may have more of an affect on the rotors field than the idlers and maybe they are being pushed or pulled by shifts caused by agw. Just thoughts.

One more thing. Optical wheels with sensors would be a great way to get solid data from stators and rotor. It would show speed ups and slow downs within single revolutions of each. This could be used in simulations on a pc. Custom software ofcourse.

chug chug

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Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:29 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@Magluvin,

I would love to see that pair of stators in action. Have you tried to get it spinning AGW?

If Al were to give me a working device, I wouldn't have a clue what to do with it. I would take it to reputable lab to let the experts examine it and figure out what makes it tick ... something I have wanted since the beginning. If I could be sure it would get an unbiased and thorough examination, I'd drop out tomorrow.

OC
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:43 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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That was Yadaraf's goal. I think he's been hammered with a new job or something.

One thing worth mentioning, why is it Madprof and Alsetalokin have 12:1 action but we cannot replicate it? Or has someone else done so?

It is inidicative of differences between our system and theirs.


Cool
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:57 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Harvey wrote:

One thing worth mentioning, why is it Madprof and Alsetalokin have 12:1 action but we cannot replicate it? Or has someone else done so?


I think I might have. I recall a couple times when the sound was a bit different. But I was trying something weird at the time and didn't have the tach handy. It's not something I have been trying to reproduce, and I can't recall exactly what the conditions were at that time.
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:52 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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you may notice the 13 x at the times it is slowing down.

It is such that it goes into this due to being to close to the rotor. It will flip in between the rotor magnets.
Honestly a High speed frame camera of optical system will have to be done with this.

I have set it up with areas that drop AGW from what appears to be over running it with the rotor. Yet I can not say for sure, due to no way to log it.

The linking of the items is to there positions to the rotor and not an outside field.

If set correctly they can even move well to each other. each one effects the rotor, and therefore the stators.
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:45 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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were the real problem is, the stator is a specific diameter. It has a constant of the push off and pull down. This is were it gets its momentum to keep going through the wall it hits for the break. It has a distance it will work in sync, It is tight.

I can set up the idlers to assist this wall break. It can be got for GW in motion, or idlers stopped. To get both I would need different magnets, strength and length.
By my 9/16 set up I do not get enough pull before lock on AGW. I get the push off to the pull down to just barely any gain before hitting the lock. Yet even with that I can set the others to assist it.

If one what to look at such, set the stator by hand to the rotor to just before push off, If the pull down from this does not make it to the next ( make that passed it) magnet with your position, redo it. You will need to adjust the angles for this. The robo mag would be good with it, other wise the folks using Whip mag 2 will need to make some adjusters to get it to the correct position. It is a modification that needs to be done.

By the way I can set it up to were if all are in motion one will drop, start it again the others will drop. This even goes with AGW.

Just a position.

Al has said them MKJD are a need in this. Such action of them is small, very small. That should let folks know just how close the balance is.

Buy the way the positions of this device are such that they will demagnetize. It will be interesting if Al,s still works due to such. I have used the rotor to demagnetize iron fillings. I have no doubt it would do such to both rotor magnets and stators idlers.
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:57 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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lostcauses wrote:

Buy the way the positions of this device are such that they will demagnetize. It will be interesting if Al,s still works due to such. I have used the rotor to demagnetize iron fillings. I have no doubt it would do such to both rotor magnets and stators idlers.


I don't think demagnetization is an issue. These magnets should be able to handle many years of this type operation before losing any measurable amount of magnetism. If Al's device stopped working, I think bearing wear or contamination would be the most likely cause.
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:01 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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LOL
OC at this point it does not mater. I hope Al's is still working.

Ahh my kingdom for an original rotor magnet........ Would not be much, LOL
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:43 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Has any one driven the rotor with AGW?? I can see no way it can be done from such.

So if it can not drive the rotor, them idlers have to. Question can one drive an stator AGW and use say robo mag concept to set the idlers to a drive position.

From the HSF vids not much variation in velocity of stator is observed.

Hmm an idea it is so far... Yet the problem with it is the variation of velocity possible in AGW. Almost would have to be a fluid coupled drive, a proplem in itself.. Possibly a spring clutch to the stator so that change in velocity could happen for a short time, etc.. Hell may not even need such..

Going over this, the AGW action has to offset the normal gw action so that it is a torque gain to the rotor. There are positions in the main spin video were this could happen.

Going over the HSf vids of AGW it is a loss. No gain from it to rotor is happening, so if this is real it has to be from them idlers.

There exist short periods of time in the main spin vidio were such could happen.
The stoped position still bothers me, as such the two walls of the idlers are at the center of AGW,

Just rambling a bit here folks, ideas running through my head. If AGW can not drive the rotor, then some thing else is, such as the idlers, and possibly vibration.

I have been trying to set the idlers for best AGW, when I need to look at what AGW can do for them.
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:56 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Just playing a bit to get higher gw rates, move it in to the rotor and spin it up. Takes some trys but will do it.
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Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:34 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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I made 2 vids for ya.

first is of getting gw with a stator about 2.5 to 3 in. from rotor, with a locked stator close to the rotor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mrnfwmk0ZA&feature=channel_page



second is of stators in gw and agw using mag film.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlgdCyoUNAk&feature=channel

be back in a bit

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Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:37 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Good stuff Magluvin. A while ago, I tried something similar but opposite to what you did. I had a handheld stator I positioned outside a GW spinning stator. I was trying to see what effects it would have on the inner stator. I tried it with the outer stator locked and also spinning. I did see some interesting interaction, but nothing that looked promising for sustained operation.

I've been very disappointed with viewing film. The area I want to see is where the fields interact with each other. The film doesn't show that area very well. I seem to get better images using a CRT. You have seen my CRT photos on photobucket, right?

Thanks for the vids.

OC
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Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:04 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Thanks Oc.
I have seen your crt stuff. I bet viewing film could be created to show more detail and pole differences(colors). I think this stuff is surplus from a kids toy, like a magnetic etch-a-sketch.

By the way, how is that crt? Laughing Did it auto degauss? tv's and crt's have auto degauss that activates on startup, when cold.

The tight focused area on the viewing film interests me. Wonder what al's unit would show here. Wink

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Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:19 am PostPost subject:
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Magluvin wrote:
By the way, how is that crt? :lol: Did it auto degauss? tv's and crt's have auto degauss that activates on startup, when cold.


It's about 7 years old, started going on the blink when it got hot so I got a new monitor. It degausses whever it is turned on. I always move my magnets elsewhere when I turn it on, then after degaussing is done, I'll set things up. I don't know if the degauss field is strong enough to damage the magnets or not, just being cautious.
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Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:31 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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lostcauses wrote:
Has any one driven the rotor with AGW?? I can see no way it can be done from such.

So if it can not drive the rotor, them idlers have to. Question can one drive an stator AGW and use say robo mag concept to set the idlers to a drive position.

From the HSF vids not much variation in velocity of stator is observed.

Hmm an idea it is so far... Yet the problem with it is the variation of velocity possible in AGW. Almost would have to be a fluid coupled drive, a proplem in itself.. Possibly a spring clutch to the stator so that change in velocity could happen for a short time, etc.. Hell may not even need such..

Going over this, the AGW action has to offset the normal gw action so that it is a torque gain to the rotor. There are positions in the main spin video were this could happen.

Going over the HSf vids of AGW it is a loss. No gain from it to rotor is happening, so if this is real it has to be from them idlers.

There exist short periods of time in the main spin vidio were such could happen.
The stoped position still bothers me, as such the two walls of the idlers are at the center of AGW,

Just rambling a bit here folks, ideas running through my head. If AGW can not drive the rotor, then some thing else is, such as the idlers, and possibly vibration.

I have been trying to set the idlers for best AGW, when I need to look at what AGW can do for them.


Yes, here is a 3 part video showing AGW with the stator as the prime mover for the rotor.

IIRC, Al was surprised that this could be done, which indicates that he is certain his device is powered from the rotor out.
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Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:09 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Harvey, Thank you.
Such a system of using a driven rotor, May need to use one of them new triggered buy position hall effect motors from a distance,,, To do this one can adjust the idlers to see what they do to the system.


I am running a strange idea of this in me head of the vibration and rotor also vibrating game that the only way I can think of adjusting it is by a driven stator.. So far as I can tell there is no true position of full gain for this, so some thing else I going on.
Will study the vids in a bit.
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Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:34 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Harvey did you try idlers with that set up to see how they would react to the driven stator??

I think you can get were i am going with this. If the idlers can be adjusted with a driven stator, one can get the idea of this thing can or can not work. Each set of magnets, strength and length seem to effect the angles needed for the idlers.

I will have to give it some thinking of how to set it up on the WM2 to drive it... The connection does not have to be to much, so I could even go a bit with flexible shaft to drive it allowing driver motor to be at some height above the WM2.

Hmm Ideas be going through me head.. Thanks again for showing it can be done.
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Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:50 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Just a thought. Used to repair vcr's, if you take an old vcr for example, they use a nice sized motor with a small pulley to drive a large flywheel with a thin shaft in the middle called a capstan. The video tape is pinched between the capstan and a rubber roller, called a pinch roller.
However with our rotors, we are probably more concerned with the smooth running of the outer side of the rotor rather than like the vcr designers being concerned with the capstan shaft running smooth to control timing of the tape movement.
So what I'm getting at here is, if you use a vcr motor with its original egg shaped pulley( to keep the flat belt centered) to drive a small pulley on the rotor, the rotor may not see much pulsing from the motor, therefore it may be a sensible way of driving the rotor without the motor transfering much of its noise to the rotor.

With that setup, adjust away on them idlers, and maybe get that whipper whippin!

The flat belt should be enough of a shock absorber to transfer smooth drive to the rotor. The motors can be made adjustable in speed with a simple rheostat and 12v.

Driving idlers, different story. Disrupting their flair for quick easy speed changes will not show us an Al video. The closest idea I have for that would be to mount the ilder to a loosely driven rotating base. Use the bearings and ilder housings to attach them to the rotating base so it could spin separately on top of the base.

Now, I'm sure you all have seen the inside of a watch, the spring in the tourbilon pendulum. This is the way I would transfer the motion of the rotating base to the stator. Not sure how tight it should be, but it would give it freedom to do its thing. Not perfectly, but better than any type of solid drive.

Hope that helps Wink

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