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Tue May 20, 2008 1:44 am PostPost subject: lostcauses corner
lostcauses
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AGW effect.
All previous version can be removed or ignored.

Why does AGW synch?

From examination of Al's HSF videos, and positions of magnets.

There is an area of attraction (pull) that is in the direction that can add to velocity, Angles are good for stator and rotor. angles of force tend to be better for rotor. Rotor magnet coming towards rotor after space of rotor between magnets.
1: At the end of this area is a break (Shear) from pole to pole that is subtractive and a drag on both rotor and stator.

2: This break goes into were the stator magnet is repelled (push) by the end of the upcoming rotor magnet pole that it just broke from. This is a minus to the rotor but a plus to the stator. A strong plus. It will allow the stator to tend to algin to the rotor for sync.
Angles of force interaction are getting close to a direct force on rotor so effect here is great on stator and small on rotor.
For folks who have the HSF videos AGW-2c frames 2, 3, 4 show area were this is.

If the system is disturbed were this area can not correct sync it will fall out. It also just removed the force loss due to shear of the pole to pole in above.

3: Of course this shifts into a position that an attraction (Pull) comes into effect.

At this stage it goes into a attraction (pull) . This is at the angle of interaction while strong (poles close) are effecting the stator well to tend to add velocity on it. Minimal effect on rotor at this point due to angle of pull. As the rotor magnet pulls away it becomes an angle to tend to effect rotor velocity. Overall effect would be a minus to rotor and stator. If this area is overshot by stator the effect would be for the rotor to drag it with it slowing it down.

Break from this pole on rotor (again a minus) seeks next rotor pole.
Strong force to add to velocity to both rotor and stator. When these two pole come together the go back to top of page, #1.

This is a basic description of the AGW effect. I may make changes to this as I learn more or find some more of my blatant mistakes.
Oh and I must thank Al for the HSF videos again. It easily let me see one of my RCS moments there by, a stupid mistake I was making in some understanding of this effect.
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Tue May 20, 2008 2:28 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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An experiment for folks.

On your rotor position a magnet to center it to center line of center of rotor and stator.

In other workd podition your magnet on the rotor to were the stator is centered in the feild. In most cases this should be asy for folks with on stator. Could be dificult for folks with more than one due to latch points.

Turn you stator to repulsion instead of attraction. It is a balanced position in which you should be able to let go of your stator and it stay in this position while holding your rotor. How far can you move your rotor before it flips the stator?
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Tue May 20, 2008 6:46 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Ahh morning ramble folks.

I must now say I can see the physical size of rotor magnet as well as strength of can effect the smooth operation of this thing. Its size is a major part of the timing and interaction of the AGW effect.

Then there is the space between magnets. This is a two effect area. in wich the magnets are in pull. First is the break from the physical magnet size going in a pull against both rotor and stator yet both are moving in opposite direction. In other words the force of pull is rapidly decreasing (that d squared thing) as motion continues.
Interesting is the angles of interaction of magnetic force on the moving rotor an stator. The strongest angles to effect rotor are at the weaker force (distance) of this area.
Yet at a few degrees of the rotor (approx half the distance of the stator magnet) that if in this area the rotor will have an high pull to add to its velocity. The force angle to stator motion can be great for this in this area.

The rest of the angles of force are such that the rest of this area is a drag. A bit of regulation going on here. Correction of angles and speed can happen here.

Some were around the center between magnets this action breaks and goes into a strong pull that can add to both rotor and stator.

Due to direction of motion this action of change over of pole to pole is after center. This area is were enough force can be added to get it all through the next cycle. It is the only area adding to the rotor.


This area can have a correcting effect on the stator also. The angles are such that a strong pull on the stator causing drag can happen if it is to slow here. A drag at the break point is going to happen.

Again an area of regulating to sync area. It is also the area were this thing is going to mess up sync, etc.

It is the only area were Al,s third effect can get the energy to do it.

I can see we Al sees if folks get AGW the speed up should happen!

LOL I can see a great many reasons for it not to. This system has a few corrective areas. Were this does allow for AGW, It can take away from allowing both rotor and stator to sync for gain.

In Al,s HSF vids his stator operation is such that to get velocity changes is disrupted by the stator wobble. Simply put torque converted to rotational motion (plus and minus) is lost in side to side motion. It is even possible this wobble motion is why the thing works. Not to add energy, but to remove enough of it to keep a stable operation. LOL it could also be a limiting effect on how high his effect can go.

A lot still not understood.

Folks getting a long agw sync. Simply put this has to be adding some energy.

I can see a test with the least equipment would be to time a tac reading from a high to lower rpm in agw, then with just rotor speed past the high rpm reading allowing it to coast down and time the rotor drop to the other RPM.

If the time with AGW is higher then it is adding energy, but not enough to get Al's speeding up.

Hmm some have reported such an effect. Now we would have to find were this is not adding to the overall system.
In Al's system he place drag on the rotor with the MJDs.

It just as easily could be a rotor Magnet strength in relation to distance apart etc. Simply put the corrective measures could be using up that little bit of energy that is allowing Al,s to speed up.

I can now say that this device is dependent on rotor magnet length to magnet strength to distace between magnets.

The tools for a sym are not in my capacity, and yet needs to be: to be able to see were the variables are and what it will take to replicate Als speed up.

Al,s set up is luck it ever worked as he tells his story. I can see getting the AGW. I can see were the inverse drag to speed effect can happen with AGW.

The balance to get to Al,s speeding up effect, well that is not going to be so easy. If Al to his arrangements had not of had the proper strength of rotor magnets to distance between, That third effect may never have happened!

Luck or what ever you believe in happened here with Al,s device.

At best if I were to replicate at this time I could expect is to get AGW, and maybe with tinkering to get it to some longer run times. With luck ( some thing that does not work for me) I might eventually get that speeding up effect.

For you replicators: if you get to a long agw sync, Keep tinkering. You are close.

For a long AGW sync to happen, if it takes longer to run down over your rotors normal time, energy from the magnets is being added.
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Tue May 20, 2008 7:50 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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lostcauses wrote:

For you replicators: if you get to a long agw sync, Keep tinkering. You are close.

For a long AGW sync to happen, if it takes longer to run down over your rotors normal time, energy from the magnets is being added.

@lostcauses,

I hope to isolate each feature of the Whipmag and optimize for what I call "AGW rundown time" from 400 RPM (rotor).

.. Infinite AGW Rundown Time = Self Sustained Rotation.

Graphs will look like Magnet "Strength vs RPM vs Deceleration Time" and "Rotor Height vs RPM vs Deceleration Time."

Using a 1/8" pinned stator and 3/16" pinned MKJD, I'll be optimizing each of the following:

1. Rotor magnet strength (N35 - N50)
2. Rotor height
3. Rotor magnet symmety (trickiest of all)

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Tue May 20, 2008 8:42 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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"3. Rotor magnet symmety (trickiest of all) "

Yes on that. LOL.
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Tue May 20, 2008 9:02 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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lostcauses wrote:
"3. Rotor magnet symmety (trickiest of all) "

Yes on that. LOL.

The plan is to randomly misalign the rotor magnets, photograph the rotor, and then evaluate AGW rundown time (AGWRDT?).

If one asymmetry works better than others, I can determine absolute magnet positions from the photograph (and image analysis). Cool

Cheers Smile
Yada ...
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Tue May 20, 2008 9:39 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Man you are going to get some chatter on that. LOL. Get that stator to a bouncing.

Some misalignment may be interesting. The degree in which it can be done may be of great use.

It will give some idea of the tendency to correct such.

On Al,s: from following his method, he corrected for a normal state of the rotor overdriving the stator by placing a drag on rotor.

I am still giving thought to the MKJDs. Interesting location of these. Seems to be were the most potential for adding to velocity of rotor is happening. By doing such this would up to a certain rpm let the rotor slip more into a corrective reduction in velocity.

Remember the effect of these is stronger the higher the speed. I still could be wrong about this. Due to location and height of them it may be they do drag a bit on rotor but at the same time lift it reducing bearing drag. An interesting thing them MKJD are. LOL.

His description of setting them, Ahh what a watchmaker Al would have been. His description is like having to adjust the hairspring and ballance on a high end watch when timing it to all positions.
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Tue May 20, 2008 9:54 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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I'll also be playing with grade assymetry like:

N35-N35-N35-N40-N40-N35-N35-N35

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Tue May 20, 2008 10:16 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Will be interesting.

just a note since I am still look at process that lead him to this.

When he was finding the distance from rotor for stator, the plate he was using had items on it. Looks to be Nonmagnetic stainless steel screws, and at more of a distance a brass shaft. All inductive. Normally I would ignore this other than the strength of these magnets it did have an effect.

LOL his placement of the MKJDs is in a position to them screws, only now were they can also interact with rotor also. An interesting thing this is! LOL it may mean nothing but is a good thing to keep in mind.

Also the statement that to get AGW was a problem when he had a small screw driver with in six inches, or some thing close to that.
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Tue May 20, 2008 10:44 pm PostPost subject:
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lostcauses wrote:
Will be interesting.

just a note since I am still look at process that lead him to this.

When he was finding the distance from rotor for stator, the plate he was using had items on it. Looks to be Nonmagnetic stainless steel screws, and at more of a distance a brass shaft. All inductive. Normally I would ignore this other than the strength of these magnets it did have an effect.

LOL his placement of the MKJDs is in a position to them screws, only now were they can also interact with rotor also. An interesting thing this is! LOL it may mean nothing but is a good thing to keep in mind.

Also the statement that to get AGW was a problem when he had a small screw driver with in six inches, or some thing close to that.

In the Jan 4th video, his device was placed on a steel table, which is a good magnetic shunt for things like tiny screwdrivers, etc.

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Tue May 20, 2008 11:16 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Al- Jan 6th 2007

"I adjusted, or rather experimented at different spacings, by mounting the rotor
temporarily on the 5x4 baseplate, sliding it up against the larger base with the stator
magnet (1) mounted. I photographed this but I took the picture down. I had to use DVD
cases to block up the baseplate to compensate for height differences. I used the Dremel
with a buffing pad attached, to spin up the rotor to a known rpm, as measured with the
laser tach. I then spun the stator magnet by hand, trying to get it to synch as the rotor
slowed down. I played with this for several hours, it seems, before I found that about 5
mm seemed good--that is, easiest synch and longest rundowns--no sustained runs yet,
not even a hint, except that improbable speculation graph I showed."

The photo is out there with the dvds under it and the tack in his hand. The plate he used had the screws in the holes, and the brass rotor shaft still connected.

The screws are inductive. In this application he was placing drag on stator. right angle to stator while doing his test for placement. This would effect the normal cycle a bit in relation to placement.

I find it very interesting that the MKJD are in a position that to the stator it is close to when he was estimating distance for the best effect of stator. I doubt this is a coincidence . Position is way below the rotor magnets, but in a position to be effected by the dropped to position stator.

To even have them screws in while testing is interesting.


Hmm Most interesting possibility here. Ahh following the system used to find an effect can also be an interesting experience to see such little things, or are they little?
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Wed May 21, 2008 12:31 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Just a note on the MKJDs. they are positioned were a sharp forces is applied to the stator.
It may be that having them screws allowed an adjustment range very close to two knees of the repulsion, and then a sharp force of the subtracting pull.

Even the screws on the photo of adjustment seem to be were this happens. Most interesting is they seem to help this by dampening these sharp forces on the stator, not rotor.

By having them screws in place while he was tinkering may have allowed the rotor to be adjusted closer to the center of these two forces than with out them. It would seem to allow a closer than normal position than if this had not been done this way.

It is also why the statement of were material in a position of being to the side of the system would cause a problem.

Most interesting thing, Yes????

So one of them questions today is: can these be placed away from rotor so it does not effect it as much? Does it also help the rotor stability be a smother transfer of force?

LOL just more thing to ponder!

LOL I was wondering why there did not seem to be the hammering effect as this thing went through in this area it the HSF vids. Yes the effect can be seen on the wobble, yet the velocity of the stator is close to smooth.

I can see why it stopped the chatter, and even a remote reason Al was able to get that sweet position. I can see why it helped get into AGW also.

Time will tell I believe. Do not ignore the MJKDs.
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Wed May 21, 2008 2:10 am PostPost subject:
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"I can see we Al sees if folks get AGW the speed up should happen! "

From a post of lostcauses's back a few.

Again, a slight correction: I think what I said (or meant to say) was that if your magnets give you AGW at the appropriate RPM your magnets should be good enough to reproduce what I have shown.
However, I don't believe that simply attaining AGW is enough.

Which saves, Faith, or Good Works? A little of both, IMHO, and if you have no faith, your works need to be correspondingly good-er.
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Wed May 21, 2008 2:13 am PostPost subject:
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Sorry Al .
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Wed May 21, 2008 2:35 am PostPost subject:
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No need to apologize. You are doing good work. I thank you.
Each one of these little points that is pointed out, helps, because it clears up confusion and illustrates how important a role interpretation plays.
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Wed May 21, 2008 2:57 am PostPost subject:
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Al
I respect you with putting up with all us.

I did find that photo with the dvds a while back. That time machine case kinda fit. LOL

It really did surprise me to find them screws in that photo and the relation to the MKJDs.
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Wed May 21, 2008 3:05 am PostPost subject:
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The other movie is, I think, "Behind Enemy Lines" (Gene Hackman, Owen Wilson; dir John Moore, 2001) which actually turned out to be a pretty good movie. Some excellent flying scenes.
I think I just might cue that one up right now...
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Wed May 21, 2008 4:21 pm PostPost subject:
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For folks out there reading, a simpler way of putting all my rambling.

1:Magnets Pull together: unlike poles, moving twords each other. A plus.

2:Pole break: Poles are pulling against this motion. A minus

3:Stator moves to align to poles on rotor magnet: goes in to a push: magnets passing each other: like poles. Plus stator minus rotor.
Note if a bit off in timing this could be a plus stator then minus.

Unbalances from this position goes into a pull: like poles: pulling away from each other. Plus stator then minus. minus rotor.
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Goes into a pull: like poles: travel at each other.

How does all this work? Well the motion of the magnets are such that the pull together is a strong add.

2 and 3 is the magnet timing frame and has an area it will try and correct.
Al's MKJD do play a role here by allowing a more even transfer of magnetic to velocity. It smooths out the tendency of some sharp (hammering) of the strong interactions , as well as it may assist in not allowing the same forces to cause a major change in rotor velocity.

The angles of force interaction are were there is an possibility with the correct geometry to allow a gain from the action in #1.

Why has this not been discovered before? and how was it discovered?
Oc had a dream and was working the geometry out to do it.

Al gets involved. This, even on the internet; is a great thing with some very strong odds against it.

Al's observations and mistake of spining a stator the wrong way found the oddity of the now called AGW effect. He decided to tinker with it.

Al,s discovery is how he set up his placement of the stator by an accident of having inductive material at the right geometry based out of OC,s ideas. Note this does not include AGW, that was all Al's!

He left screws in the proper locations!

What did this do? Well it allowed the placement of the stator to a position that might never have been found with out it.

Strangely enough it fit close enough to the geometry of the already set up system. Again a great deal of luck based on the magnet strength and his rotor set up.
I suspect it is such: that during the test with screws in place it was a lot easer to get into AGW than when it was placed with out them on the base!

Ahh finding the mistake that lead to discovery. This has been fun!

Can this thing be replicated? Parts of his noted effects already have, and with my seeing of how all this happened, it may be!

Edited to clear up for OC.


Last edited by lostcauses on Wed May 21, 2008 5:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Wed May 21, 2008 4:28 pm PostPost subject:
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Correction:

OC never said anything about AGW spin until after Al reported it. Al discovered that on his own, quite accidentally it seems.
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Wed May 21, 2008 4:44 pm PostPost subject:
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OC the geometry used in his item is from your ideas.
The agw effect was accidentally by Al.
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Thu May 22, 2008 4:51 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Staying in my corner:

Hmm reading some of this board is interesting.
Reason this thing has to be given motion is: if there is not enough velocity for the stator and rotor in a proper velocity to pass the pole to pole, it will drop out. In sync when it slows down again this is were it drops out.

Hmm Al has been able to get a small prop running for a time on this.

Think of this in this manner. The angles and the pole to pole set up on this:
move the rotor to the closest point of pole to pole with the stator. If only one stator a normal lock point. If more you may need to move the rotor to this position.

Slowly move the rotor in a direction, say clock wise: watch the direction of the stator turn. Hmm there close to the center of the magnets on the rotor the stator will go in a slight AGW direction.

Of course in the above application there is not enough velocity on the system to get past the lock point., yet the motion is in AGW.

Since this point in the slow motion by hand does not shear the pull, as the rotor is turned it again is dragged to the GW direction: Ah back to the easy direction of motion.

So even in GW motion the AGW is a part (Loss) of the rotation.
LOL it ads to the drag of GW in this configuration.
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Thu May 22, 2008 5:15 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Now the question is can I place a slip cam in place to were it keeps the stator from going into GW and get some effect at lower speeds.

Does not have to be geared, just at the point of not allowing the stator to follow in the normal process of going back to GW from AGW???

Can I provide a slip to repulsion mode ah them ideas going in me head.
Can this be done at slower speeds?
LOL
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Thu May 22, 2008 5:24 am PostPost subject:
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Well it might make this were it can be started in one motion verses all that work to get it going at least!
I hope you folks can see what I am talking about. LOL.
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Thu May 22, 2008 7:21 am PostPost subject:
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lostcauses wrote:
Well it might make this were it can be started in one motion verses all that work to get it going at least!
I hope you folks can see what I am talking about. LOL.


This was suggested early on. In fact, one-way bearings are available and probably would assist AGW at low speeds. But I do think they have a slightly higher drag coefficient.

Cheers
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Thu May 22, 2008 4:05 pm PostPost subject:
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One way bearings, No. Way to much friction for way to long. Would interfere with corrective torque also!
Not even sure I can do what I am thinking. I really don't like anything were it can interfere with the stator. Will have to play with it a bit. LOL

A point slip is what I am thinking. were it is during slow velocitys to push stator past the point were it is normaly draged, and in AGW broke due to the velocity of rotor and stator.
Yet it would have that problem of the rotor tending to expand as it speeds up. Just simply may not be practical on the outside of the rotor. Adding a centrifugal control
may be an idea also. When it speeds up; due to that it then can get out of the way. Yet that may be a bit much junk to effect drag on the rotor.

Yet for this thing to find any use: an easy way to get it to sync is going to have to happen.

I don,t see any math being done so, I may have to do it the old fashion way, LOL Been a long time since I did it. Were does this thing gains that tiny bit of velocity without losing it I can see, but can not see how much.

That area were it is pulling, and subtracting: with as it turns against it, is that inverse function of to force thing with both objects in arcs of motion turning away from each other causing change in force to motion angles. Hmm
Were have I seen that before? Oh yea that! Oh yes that perpetual pendulum thing. the gravity controlled drop of the horseshoe magnet to the ball as it is passing the magnet. LOL

It flat does not get the time to cancel out the over all velocity gain. Got to love the curve when both magnets are in motion to the force applied at what angles to the rotor stator to effect the velocity. It flat changes the game. The break and turn of the stator is a corrective of the velocity gains to sync area.

The torque is enough for Al to have a prop on his and make it through the cycles for a time pulling air. Maybe some thing like a start control can be done. Maybe not.
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Thu May 22, 2008 5:30 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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The proplem with magnets is simply put in this form.

The same force that causes an action must be overcome to provide a gain. It can not be equal as in gravity and pendulum effect.
In other words.

You look up the math. It is out there. Any true physicist that have studied magnet and motion from them do now this balance can be interfered with. The energy gain is small and due to such has been ignored. In most cases it would not even over come the friction and drag. Kinda like ignoring the small gain of a pendulum if it is placed in the proper direction of travel to the earth. For that mater the nown variation in gravity you folks that may have studied it found.

The math involved is already out there and is as such close the the gravity problem. In magnets the force can be moved, it is not stationary. It can be seen that such, say using gravity as a force with this can change the formula of equalization to a small energy gain. I wish I had that old book out of the 1800 I found a talk of this in. LOL

Any of you physics folks that say other wise; DO the math: small, yes but it is there and has been for years. YOU all IGNORED it as useless and to small to be worth anything!

Today we have some very powerful magnets (technology) to play with! Have you done the math to the strength of these for that ignored gain?
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Thu May 22, 2008 9:36 pm PostPost subject:
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Serious Thunder and Lightning here today.

Also, the WhiPMag has a natural imbalance introduced by the AGW operation. All things being the same, a differential exists in the manner the fields interact during approach as opposed to retreat. It was this factor that initially led me to think the flux density was being compressed during the approach and decompressed during the retreat. However this logic had to be set aside due to the fact that for every pass of a rotor magnet the field interaction is both repulsion and attraction simulataneously. I have posted the curve for this elsewhere.

Consequently we have an imbalance relative to the direction of rotation, but seemingly even this is conserved in angular momentum. So, if the magnetic interaction is both push and pull and the conservation of angular momentum is dominant, how can we expect any 'thrust' as Al puts it?

Varous theories abound regarding virtual particles, gamma reactions, thermodynamic equilibrium and magnetokinetic storage and dispersal. Some have discussed vorticle entrapment and flux confinement and the list goes on. All of which are moot without a valid hypothesis that are tested and proven one way or the other.

Currently, the evidence seems to direct us toward an often overlooked characteristic regarding flux interactions. Magnetic flux behaves in an elastic manner (as do many of nature's interactions), and thus tends to stretch under stress and 'bunch up' under pressure. But, it also has tensile strength. And when it is stretched beyond its tensile strength, it snaps. (This is an over simplification). The inverse is true regarding the pressure build-up. In this case the flux density will not merge because the vectors are at odds with each other and they push against each other. This can be likened to two well oiled balloons pressing against each other, the process is very vector dependent. For this to occur, very specific criteria must be met.

As the force (momentum) increases and the interaction time decreases, we find that the force vectors are turned enough to cause the 'balloons' to shear past each other with very little energy exchange. So in this case we leave the energy in the momentum as the 'conservation of momentum' law applies here. During the shearing event both the tensile snap and the pressure shear occur together. Thus, for the negative torque portion of the cycle the system shears and the energy is conserved. For the positive torque portion of the cycle we have both a push from repulsion and a pull from attraction adding to the momentum of both rotor and stator. This is the 'thrust'.

I have started a thread in the physics area where I hope to explore the math for rotational physics as applied to this phenomenon.
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Thu May 22, 2008 9:42 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Harvey you may have put what I am posting in a better way. LOL

I am wondering of how to word this stuff.

Two magnets stuck together is at a state were the magnetic force hold them in that
position, is work being done? NO. Yet they have potential energy.

This is the same as a book sitting on a high shelf in your home. it has potential energy. It is not doing work sitting there. yet the force of gravity is in effect or it could not just sit there. Same as a magnet on a refrigerator. It has two potential energy sources. One gravitational, the other magnetic. One overcoming the other is were folks mistake this for work.

The magnets are placed on two rotors. placed pole to pole. This is the same as a book on a shelf. Potential energy.
The force holding the rotors is at a straight line to the centers of the rotors.
Pulling it apart from this normal state takes force applied to do the work.Energy lost by overcoming the magnetic attraction.

The potential energy can now; by letting lose the rotor become a kinetic energy. It becomes a force converted to motion, Therefore work as it goes back to the normal state of force this is now kinetic energy. (unequaled magnetic force converted to kinetic energy)
As with such things the mass in now in motion and accelerates depending on friction and angle of magnetic force to the rotor. In a fully frictionless idea of the system , the larger of the mass would do the most movement. If equal they would both move at the same rate.

It is such that the mass of the rotors in motion will if set up right be a viewable pass from pole to pole. Even if you can not see it the kinetic energy is such torque is applied past the normal center. stat eof pole to pole.

Think of it this way, what would happen to the rotational mass if the same force to move a magnetically coupled set is applied to a non magnetic coupled rotor? That force would also carried through as kinetic energy. This part seems to be hard for folks to understand.
Place them non magnetically coupled rotors in system of no friction at an angle were they would spin it would do so forever Unless some force stops them. LOL I would have to exclude the gravity due to mass also.

Now folks like to think that by adding magnets to the mess they can keep this kinetic energy area of seemingly extra motion looping. Not so. If you add more you shift the potential energy location right along with the kinetic shift. Strangely enough the curve overlap gets smaller until they come together. (potental enrgy, no motion). Y


For such to work the potential energy point center has to be sheared (must become untied) to the kinetic energy center point. Other wise just the energy put in will be conserved as it just falls back to the center and only potential energy (no motion) remains.

I have seen such a shift in systems twice now and suspect it was done in the past. Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile and Now Al,s

Al,s has the better of the two as it can be a lot more corrective.

As for you folks doing GW direction games. were is your potential energy to kinetic enrgy curve center are you realy breaking it?
You may get some effect but that curve will stay at center and eventually collapsing back to zero. Just back to potential energy source.

That is what I was expecting to find in Al,s system. Instead I find the shear.

I know most folks will not have a clue of what I am saying, I hope some do.

I did try and put this as best I could. For folks ever having to look at such systems if it is the potential energy center is being moved with the kinetic, it is as a pendulum going to and fro it is going to go to zero.

With out shear causing a disconnect from the potential energy center it is not going to happen.
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Fri May 23, 2008 2:55 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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In another thread lostcauses wrote:
"But if all stators are removed the rundown times are even longer. "
hmm
If you added the stator mass to the rotor one could get a idea of the friction of such as the stator.


however, the MOI of the stator adds non frictional drag and the angular momentum counters that drag.

Edit: I put this here because the other thread may be deleted.


Last edited by Harvey on Fri May 23, 2008 3:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fri May 23, 2008 3:08 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Harvey it is such but the over all loss due over stator mass could be seen.
LOL the magnetic coupling itself does interfere. Yet if I geared the stator the friction of the gear is similar to the magnetic coupling, including the mas of the gear we don't have.

By placing the mass of the stator on the rotor and the run down time is a not so great way to see the (drag) LOL.

Most likley not worth the time unless some one was interested.

Yep I should have posted it in me corner. LOL
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