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static machines and other interesting devices

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Fri May 16, 2008 6:58 am PostPost subject: static machines and other interesting devices
alsetalokin
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I realize that discussions of non-whipmag things will clutter those threads even more, so if anybody is interested in discussing my static machines, your static machines, or other interesting devices that you may be working on, this is a better place to do it.
Bada-boom! Let there be a new thread!
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Fri May 16, 2008 10:50 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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I had another look at the footage. I found some more that I missed between frames 700 & 1004. I agree that these appear to be camera artifacts, like residual charge in the CCD element from a previous flash. However, there are a few things to consider:

1. Some of the pink flashes do not have a corresponding white flash and vice versa. This could simply be a situation where the flash occurred while the 'shutter' was closed.

2. If the pink flash is a residual image it should overlay real images (be on top of the pvc wand).

3. The presence of the wand in a pink flash area appears to change its size and shape.

4. During some of the flashes (above frames 1400 IIRC) the pink flashes occur before the corresponding white flash.

It would be very interesting to repeat this experiment with the high speed camera. It could still be that the echos are real spatial echos rather than CCD echos. If it is a camera artifact, rotating the camera will change the angle of displacement.

Lets see...the high tension wire connecting the cap stacks. I'll have to look at that a bit closer later this evening. First thoughts are series resonant tank and the wire is a single wire inductor to help pump up the voltage.

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Sat May 17, 2008 2:29 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Well, on closer examination the wire just looks like a means to complete the circuit and provide a reference for the caps.

However, that is an interesting design with just a single rotor and no contact brushes.

So the entire exchange is via coronal discharge?

Allgedly the Merinithians (sp?) use an antenna to capture enough atmostpheric potential to run a small 3 volt motor to drive their Testatika machine which in turn provides the power for some simple use devices as needed. The concept, I am told is to split the potential using the wheel and then let it equalize through the loads. Supposedly Paul put some sort of electro magnet and peizo crystals to assist in the voltage separation. Replicators try make the unit run itself, but what I gather Paul did was take advantage of the fact that air is 200V higher 100' up and there is a gradient from 200 to zero that Paul put his antenna in. So, by stepping the voltage down he gets enough current to run the motor.

How much current does your motor require? How much power do think the machine can produce?
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Sat May 17, 2008 4:51 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Actually there are two counterrotating disks. The machine is symmetrical front and rear, so if you imagind duplicating what you see onthe front, and sandwiching the two units together with a small air gap, that's what you get. The drive motors (flat black things) are 12-volt automotive radiator fan motors, surplus, 5 bucks each. No cogging, freely spinning when not energized. (these have a very interesting design, btw. a flat ring magnet polarized in sectors, and a flat armature that is the weirdest thing I've ever seen in a dc motor.) The big grey box to the right is just a 24 volt ps for the motors.
I use it instead of a smaller one because it is bullet-proof. I can't count how many regulators, pwms and other chips I've replaced in various fancy power supplies when a HV transient zaps them.
I don't recall what the motors draw at "normal" operating rpm. I'll check when I get back to the lab.
Also I don't trust direct output current measurements at those voltages. One could calculate the current, based on the known parameters: machine capacity (the TDK doorknobs + about 50 pF for the terminal capacities and the collecting structures), spark voltage (derived from sphere separation) and spark rate; I think this would be about as accurate as a meter measurement, without constructing a (very) special meter.
It will probably be in the tens of microamps.

Since I am using the motors that have very little drag when de-energised, I can observe something that others may not be able to. If I turn the motors off while the machine has a big charge, the discs will coast to a stop, then briefly turn in the opposite direction for as much as half a full rotation. Clearly they are being pulled by electrostatic attraction, but between what components of the machine?

Baumann's devices are extremely interesting to me, as I have actually spoken to a physicist who visited Methernitha and actually held the "small machine" in his hands while it was operating. He says he couldn't figure out how it could have been hoaxed, as the power output of that small unit seemed to be greater than that which would have been available from concealed batteries, etc. Too bad he wasn't allowed to take it apart, or see it for an extended time.
This is a person whose judgment I trust, but the visit was a long time ago... Question

Anyway, the Testatika is what initially stimulated me to start investigating static devices.

I'm afraid to take the HS camera near the static devices. It uses a CMOS sensor, not a ccd, and I'd be up a very muddy creek if I zapped it. Maybe I can figure out a bulletproof screening method. Let's see, where did I put that sheet of de-refracted unobtanium...?
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Sat May 17, 2008 4:59 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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That durned wire.
I just can't figure it out.
It seems to me that it should stay at ground potential at all times, even during a spark discharge.
Our RF guy explained it in line with your first idea--just enough inductance to provide a resonant condition in the tank made up of the caps, the gap, and the wire.
But still--
I almost need a throw-away scope to hook up in there, damn the torpedoes and fire away. I actually purchased the RM503 specifically for that purpose; its first stage preamps are germanium transistors but the rest is thermionics, so it might survive...but it is such a nice antique I hate to risk it.
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Sat May 17, 2008 11:43 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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The Reverse:
It's been a while since I looked at the dynamics of these devices but IIRC their are four spatial charge quadrants that each disk passes through - like charges are 180 out and opposite polarity per disk on the z-axis. Charge buildup is collected off the disk via combs and stored in some type of HV accumulators. When the disks coast to a stop the brushes and their connecting rod represent one charge and the depleted area of the disk represent another - these attract back and the momentum overshoots to the combs and the system becomes neutralized. IIRC Neutral

The Wire:
One of the tricks in elelctronics when dealing with polarized accumulators (capacitors) is to tie two negatives together and the assembly then becomes a non-polarized unit. Provided the negative poles are left floating the dielectric differential of both capacitors becomes equalized. This can become useful when there is an imbalance between two voltages and ground but the overall between them combined is within a certain limit. Consider for example if the negative terminal of your device is only about 200V away from ground but the postive is 350KV above ground. By isolating the system and using the wire as yours does, the doorknob caps will balance the 350.2KV across the terminals essentially driving the negative side down 175.1KV below ground and the postive side down to 175.1 above ground. The wire then, connecting the two will be floating near ground potential but the energy distribution is not relative to ground but only relative to the system. This relaxes the requirements for your capacitor voltage maximums as now instead of 400KV caps you could use 200KV caps.

The Camera:
I fully understand the concerns regarding HV and the camera. Two solutions come to mind for that - 1. Telephoto Lens 2. Fiber Optic Lens.

The HV power measurement:
The cheapest method I can thnk of to measure the power is to discharge the voltage into the primary of a HV stepdown transformer and measure the output voltage and current on the secondary. You would want a very high frequency transformer to improve effeciency. The impedance of the primary circuit combined with the capacitance will determine the time constant of the capacitive discharge. This time constant governs the frequency requirement of the transformer.

You may find E-field sensors useful for dynamic tests that provide HV isolation

Also, there are a variety of MOV's on the market that can be used to protect the inputs of test equipment - just make sure you select one that is below the maximums of the componets to be protected. ESD diodes also play an important part here as they avalanche and absorb the current flow during an ESD event thereby protecting the sensitive components.

Cheers Very Happy
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Sun May 18, 2008 4:33 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Yesss,,,however...
I think your analysis of the static machine is pretty much in line with the conventional explanations of their operation. However during my experience with these things I have come to the conclusion that the standard explanations are incomplete, at best, and very likely wrong in some details. Here's a picture of a machine I built in 2001. The horizontal capacitor stack can be seen, through the disks, darkly. So the central wire in the more recent machine can be seen as a mere connection between the central 2 capacitors in the horizontal stack. And this connection could be seen as a single plate between two dielectrics in a multi-layer capacitor.



I'm not sure an ordinary transformer could take a 300 kV input. However, I do have a couple of these knocking about the lab, and if I discharge into the secondary, I might be able to measure the output at the primary--especially if I charge up a big bunch of capacitors... Hmmm...using the big "torpedo" caps I could assemble maybe a tenth of a microFarad at 200 kV...
Hmmm....
Hmmmmmmm...




Hmmmmm......

(Edit to add: I don't trust insulation or passive devices to protect at the voltages I'm interested in. (350kV is the bottom of that range). The only thing that will protect you--or your apparatus--from those voltages is space: that is, you must be somewhere else when they are happening. I've seen a 1/2 inch thick plate of G-10, about 2 meters square, suspended in air between two 750 kV VDG machines, become so charged up with induced charge that it might as well not have been there. I've seen transformer oil churning in field-driven quasi-convection at 110 kV during a Biefeld-Brown experiment that fractured a 30-mm thick block of lead titanate...I've actually taken a discharge from one of those VDGs, estimated at 500 kV--I was standing too close (2 meters!) while operating the control unit--it hit my elbow and exited my hand, after arcing all that way from the terminal--if it had gone through my chest, you would be spared the trouble of reading this...)

I tell you, that stuff is better than a double espresso, any day!!

(edit2: However carefully you proofread and however sophisticated your spelling and grammar checker, there will always be at least one error in any publicly published text output. Law of the Lab # eleventy-seven.)
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Mon May 19, 2008 12:47 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Yeah, HV can be problematic. Those can be some big E Fields.



There is a 45kV (150:1 ratio) pulse transformer on this site for about 19 bucks. By building a series array of these you could measure voltages up to 900kV. Just put 20 in series as step downs. This would give us a sum of 6kV output for a 900kV input. The final 6KV could then be run through another one of these bringing the voltage down to ~40V for a 900KV input. (and of course the array could be used to generate 900KV as well if used in reverse). The duty cycle is probably low but I think the materials and construction would hold up to your rigorous tests. The overall efficiency of the array can introduce errors but it would be a low cost solution for quantifying the energy differentials.

Back in 1979 I was securing a loose HV anode wire on a diode stack that was live. I found out two things. 1. Old high tension insulation can have cracks. 2. A 25kV arc will jump 6 inches through the air in preference of an open cut in a thumb cuticle over the normal diode path its hardwired to. Shocked Shocked

Nothing like your adrenaline rush, but I can relate 20:1 Wink

Your synopsis of the wire seems dead on. The issue, I guess falls under the polar differentials of the machine relative to ground. Its like an unbonded neutral line. I've seen these float on household wiring to as high as 70V relative to ground. If you used an HV probe (I have a 25K version around here somewhere) on that wire it might tell you where your balance point is for the machine. I agree that there is still more to learn wrt EM radiation and pathways.

Where did you get your specs for the machine?
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Mon May 19, 2008 6:31 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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I realize I didn't answer an earlier question: Yes, the Bonetti machines that I have made (so far) are entirely non-contact; all charge separation is by induction and all charge transfer is via corona. The amazing thing is that the machines will start at all, with only a few femtoCoulombs of charge imparted by my fingers. If that much. And really, the current output must be pretty high for a machine of this size; I believe certain modifications of my own discovery have boosted the available current (or at least optimized its collection).
The basic design came from R.A.Ford's book, Homemade Lightning. But I incorporated some features that his designs do not. For example, I think my doorknob caps are more efficient (albeit quite a bit more costly) than Leyden jars. Also, my designs incorporate independently adjustable neutral structures that can be adjusted while the machine is running, to change the geometry and symmetry of those charge sectors you mention in an earlier post. I have found, by careful observation of the corona patterns on the disks themselves, that a symmetrical arrangement, as implemented in virtually all Wimshurst and Bonetti machines, is non-optimal, both in terms of maximum tension attained, and current output. In addition, the same can be said for the actual charge pickup structures at the left and right margins of the disk. These structures can actually be omitted entirely in my designs if maximum current output is not required; the machine will actually reach slightly higher maximum tension if they are omitted, and charge allowed to transfer by corona from the disk margins to the prime conductors (the horizontal tubes). If current output is to be maximized, however, the pickup structures must be extended into the disks' corona bands, which are defined by the geometry of the neutral structures. The angle of the pickups must not be horizontal, but rather split as shown in the above picture.
Also, considerable effort must be put into "leak control", as the physical dimensions of the machine are what limit its maximum tension--clearly, you can only get as much voltage out as you are able to keep separate on the machine. The machine will discharge across the collector pickup combs at its maximum attainable tension. Well before that, though, small irregularities will make themselves known in spectacular displays of corona spray, easily visible in a darkened room. As these leaks are addressed and remedied one by one, the attainable tension will rise, until finally the machine arcs across the pickups, and beyond that you will be unable to go, unless you make a larger machine.
The disks are acrylic plastic, of the type known as "FF", which is cast rather than extruded. Or is it the other way around...Anyway, for builders of these machines, especially larger ones (machines, not builders!), it is important to have a disk material that is consistent in density, otherwise it will be difficult to balance mechanically and electrically.
Polycarbonate is too flexible. Aerodynamic effects interact with electrostatic forces to produce some pretty interesting (and scary) deformations in the plane of counter-rotating highly charged disks. I have had some spectacular collisions trying to use big polycarbonate disks. I can only imagine the fun that the early investigators had, with those big glass disks.
You should be able to get 250-300 kV from a 300 mm (disk diameter) machine.

(The copper sphere is a "tank float" used in stock tanks, I have also used the ribbed ones found in old-time toilet tanks, with a little insulation; the chrome sphere is one of those Chinese chime-containing exercise balls drilled and tapped on the lathe. These terminal capacities help form the "display spark"; they can be removed if the machine is to be used as a power supply for laboratory explorations.)
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Tue May 20, 2008 11:09 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Do you feel that separating the horizontal stack into two vertical stacks had any effect on the overall performance between the 2001 rig and the one from the video?

I have been contemplating (mosting subconciously I admit) the differences at play. The electrical path using the wire likely has more resistance due to length. Also, as current flows through the wire a magnetic field is produced and thus there must be an inductive push as the current stops - time is a variable here. Also, we have different postions in space. Each end of the wire may in fact have a different potential during an event:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1bUWcy8HwpM

Wink
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Wed May 21, 2008 1:13 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Lewin's amazing. I love to watch great teachers at work. Thanks for that clip.

Of course, working around pulsed power here in the lab, I am very familiar with the phenomenon he illustrates.

A couple things come to mind: We were discharging a couple microfarads at 15-20 kV into a Graneau spark gap, through an inductor wound of about 10 turns 1/4 inch copper tubing with about 12 " diameter. This whole apparatus was in the top bay of an open relay rack. The high-speed photographs showed a shower of sparks coming from the top corner of the rack itself.
We determined that there was a tiny spot where the rack verticals didn't make good electrical contact with the top. The induced current in the "secondary" 1-turn loop made by the rack bay walls and ceiling was so great that it arced violently across that little high-resistance spot.
Another time with the same apparatus, we used a big aluminum plate as the base and ground plane for the triggered air gap switching mechanism. The capacitor ground strap was a 1-inch wide copper sheet ribbon that came up from the cap stack, curved over the edge of the ground plane, and terminated in a 1/2 inch bolt thru the ribbon into the plate about 2 inches in from the edge of the plate. So the ribbon comes up, maintains about an inch of clearance over the edge, and curves to the bolt which is screwed in tightly. In operation, a power arc would often develop between the ribbon and the edge of the ground plane, even though there was a solid termination not 2 inches away down the ribbon.

There are a lot of variables affecting the performance of the two Bonetti machines. Each of these machines is operating at its corona limit, so it's hard to make a comparison. I think the vertical stacks are a bit more elegant; at first I used them as the actual physical supports for the collectors and terminal capacities, but that arrangement was not solid enough so I went to the support plates similar to the earlier unit. Also there is quite a bit more capacity in the later unit, so the display sparks are more intense. Ironically, these two machines have never both been in the same country, so I can't make a side-by-side comparison.
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Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:36 pm PostPost subject: Electrostatic Magnetics
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I thought I would introduce myself to this group by
posting my theory invention here as I am not working on any
actual device. I came up with this idea so long ago and have thought
it to be the best solution as it requires an input and that is what physics
demands mostly...lol What actual torque and beyond are of course unanswered. However the technology of magnetics is coming to the point where a machine like mine will be in watches, beacons and whatever else we can squeeze one into. I would certainly hope one could come up with a better
generator but Tesla is my game.
I have no plans or means to build one. I have extensive knowledge of this device and I think it's more than just possible. I would really not attempt to build one simply because they are at this moment creating new technology to do just this. So I wait and wait.....
I am working on another magnetics project at the moment so if anyone really wants to bug me feel free for now... Smile
Below is url to my block diagram and some explanation.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-11/72114/MagStatic_Motor_I.JPG
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Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:40 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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@EnSync,

Welcome to the group.
It is difficult to read the document you posted but I think I managed. If I understand your device correctly, it is two wheels magnetically coupled? When one turns, the other turns with it?. It's difficult to tell how it is intended to work or by what principles. There seem to be quite a few questions in your description.

Feel free to elaborate on how you see this working.

Cheers,

Harvey
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:36 pm PostPost subject:
EnSync
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Harvey
Thanks you.
I have replaced the jpg with a much better one.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-11/72114/MagStatic_Motor_I.JPG

The two wheels share a true axle, however it would be better to have magnetic
bearings. Which are not really invented yet that don't use electricity anyway.
Need mechanical output from somewhere, so directly from the axle for now.
The idea of a magnetic coupling is novel but have no idea of any torque transfer?
This idea I have is actually very high tech and I have doubts a model could be built
exactly like I would like. The Electrostatic generator charges 'something' be it a specially designed capacitor or combination cap & magnet (one piece construct)
The energy from the stored static is used to alter a magnet field, either by induction or custom electromagnet. The final output either pulls or pushs the motor rotor magnet...right?.
Hope it is somewhat clearer. Hard to explain because I am thinking of all the variables that can be eliminated by new technology that is coming from magnetics.
Honestly I think in the end it would be a simple machine due to technology that is even now available but expensive. The generator is very complex as yet and I am
working on the design some but in essence it is a single wheel generator with a static wheel. True balance would be great for both wheels. Multiple Electrostatic generators are a possibility to increase the electrical current output.
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:06 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Sounds interesting. It is a bit more than I can visualize at the moment, but please keep us posted on your progress and the details (variables) of how it functions.

Thanx for sharing Very Happy

Cheers,

Cool
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Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:17 pm PostPost subject:
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Thanks Harvey,
The problem is I have thought about the Mag Motor for over 20 years.
Much research in thought only on all types of Mag Motors.
I have come to the conclusion that I need a Mag Motor with one/two wheels
with no external 'helper mags'. It must be all on the main wheels.
If I can find one of these that spin for at least one minute and it does not need any output as far as torque energy for now.
I can 'improve' on it with my Electrostatic Generator...the outcome hopefully
would be a a ES/MAG wheel with a tiny amount of 'extra' output and will run continuously from that point on....
The Electrostatic Generator needs much research. I am doing that now on my spare time.
It looks really hopeful and actually it all depends on size I think.
I am not able to give exact details since I only want the one with the Mag Wheel to know since they would be the one to actually know
what to do with my Generator besides me. Its like this: No Matter HOW you build the magnet motor it will NEVER fly
continuously unless it has power input. Lets stick to physics for now and drop overunity. I am not against it..it is
Perhaps a needle in a haystack and I don't have time to argue with Physics till I get my way...if ever.
I love the all posts and and people here are great. Very Happy
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Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:27 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Sounds like a project Al might be able to contribute to ... lots of experience with magnetic motors and electrostatic generators. Right up his alley.

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Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:50 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Well, I do have a fair amount of experience in both those areas it is true.
I can't really tell very much from EnSynch's diagram or description, it is just too vague. But perhaps it would be good to consider the following as a start:
Electrostatic "generators" do not generate electricity in the usually understood manner. Rather, they use mechanical power input to physically separate and segregate electrical charges into regions of excess negative and excess positive charge. When these charges are allowed to recombine, useful work may be extracted, as I have shown very clearly in my Dirod and Franklin Motor videos.
The catch, of course, is that work must be performed on the charges (or their physical carriers) in the first place in order to separate the charges and build up a tension (i.e. potential difference, AKA voltage). It is just this work that is extracted at the end. The energy needed to produce the work isn't amplified, it is only changed in form. There are inevitable losses due to friction, Joule heating, corona discharge, and etc. so what you get out is energetically less that what you put in.
Electrostatic machines can be very efficient, IMHO more efficient than low-voltage electromagnetic devices, but the overall throughput still follows CofE and 2LoT.
Unfortunately.

But it will be very interesting to see a fleshed-out and mature design from EnSynch.
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Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:58 pm PostPost subject:
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Alsetalokin,
Thanks for the input.
The Electrostatic Generator that I am designing
is all new technology, it compresses the static charge
in a smaller area and also new techniques to collect the
static charge thus increasing the total output.
However, I have maybe stumbled across a new type of generator
that will deliver much more power and is not Electrostatic.
Again my purpose is to pulse a Magnetic Motor within a closed system.

Without an external source of input to a Magnetic type 'Pendulum' Motor that rotates by itself
is not possible for it to rotate with complete stability for long lengths of time.
The Generator keeps the pulse going to the motor, the motor turns the generator.
The 'boost' the Motor gets is its final output in pulse form.
If a real device like this can be made, believe me there is no need for 'torque' output for now. Shocked
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Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:37 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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@Al, do you have any physical models of the Faraday Disc motor? i.e. N-Machine type?

Also, I can't remember now - but you indicated you had a motor from your Texas days and it was left there. Any chance of having that shipped up for some analysis?

Hope your TDY is going well.

Cheers,

Harvey
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Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:39 am PostPost subject:
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Everyone,
Because I have invented a completely new type of
generator that is unlike anything ever explored, I must drop
all else and try and actually build it. It is very simple but the actual
construction is not so simple for me as I do not have a workshop that
is good enough to do so. So I will explore a way to build a working
model for now. I may be gone for awhile. So everyone best of luck
on your inventions for energy.....

EnSync
Very Happy
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Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:11 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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EnSync,

Thanx for sharing your concept with us.

Please keep us posted on your progress Smile

Cheers,

Harvey
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Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:20 pm PostPost subject:
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@EnSynch:
If you can be very specific about your design I can probably build it. I promise I will not steal your intellectual property--but so far it sounds like a standard pulse-motor-generator concept. Can you describe the new features of your design?

@Harvey: Yes, I have been very interested in the Homopolar motor designs for some time now. Personally I am more interested in the Marinov/Nikolayev variants than in the Tewari-DePalma types. The owner of the company for whom I do most of my consulting is a genuine expert on these devices and even holds a couple patents on very interesting Tesla-inspired variants that do not require liquid metal contacts. I met Trombley back in the ISSO days--he is someone whose liquid-metal contact patent was in fact "suppressed" under the military secrets provisions of the patent laws...very interesting days, those.
Lately I have been experimenting with contacts of Gal-In-Stan, the eutectic alloy of gallium, tin, and indium, which is liquid at room temperature and has nearly zero vapor pressure. It wets just about everything, unlike mercury, and is supposed to be non-toxic. The lack of vapor pressure makes it good for use under hard vacuum, but it does tend to make a mess, and it will oxidize and develop a scum if not isolated from the atmosphere like with a cover of vac oil.
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Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:01 pm PostPost subject:
EnSync
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Alsetalokin,
Thank you for the offer and I have decided that you may build it and explore it. I do not have the 'complete plans' but an outline of build theory and there could be many variations of my device as far as what technology is used. So you would be using my ideas with yours..that is ok
and how you build it is up to you. I am just trying to be the major contributer to it all.
Any help should be by private mail. I have calculated that there is a 51% chance that a design like this could fly...on. The only reason I used static was because that small amount of 'current' generated can induce a tiny induction.
If you think this may help the Mag design like I do than lets go for it.
I have come up with more high tech ideas (Mag/Gen) that I am unable to make, but with a proper lab then yes. I do not want to look like an idiot that is bothering people. For instance the static compression idea is only an idea, but I have build theory notes on that. I can say for sure a Model built in a lab is in no way what I am looking for in the end...the final device will be using the latest and best tech. Also Al if all goes more than we expect then we can share.
My new found generator needs to also be looked at, it is however another influence machine. Also, like I said before as I see here in the post ..no friction allowed other than air for the final one...we hope. You have my email?
And I am very happy you have a real expert for consulting and everyone will get theirs...if it looks like it is stupid LOL than I will go hide under the bed...thanks much for the offer....
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Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:39 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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@EnSynch:
When you talk about electrostatic charge compression I am reminded of a device known as a "variable condenser" which may be constructed in various forms.
Also, a Brazilian scientist named AM de Quieroz has a very interesting website on electrostatic machines. Perhaps you might like to take a look at his site and see if you can get any ideas (or perhaps see if your ideas have already been implemented by another researcher.)
www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/electrostatic.html
Very graphics-intensive site.
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Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:14 pm PostPost subject:
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@alsetalokin,
I have been there and thanks. I mean surface compression.
Yes I have really designed a completely new type of influence machine.
And about the invention I have invented per theory...my very personal opinion is
that I am 99.9 % sure that it will do exactly what I want it to to.
The problem is that without someone's loose mathematical opinion (Hawkins or a supercomputer) for example
could validate this then I am lost to the wind. I will help in every way possible if you still want to be partners in this? I actually can design the Mag Motor also, it is just that I have no way to do so. I gave my idea to the world knowing very well what I am in for.
Of course it will take some time to develop one that will fly. It is the size of the model that seems to be my problem. Today I feel bad, what tomorrow brings is another question. LOL I should have been the one to fake a working model because I probably would not have regretted it in the end,,,it would actually work. Very Happy
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Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:27 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Alsetalokin wrote:

@Harvey: Yes, I have been very interested in the Homopolar motor designs for some time now. Personally I am more interested in the Marinov/Nikolayev variants than in the Tewari-DePalma types. The owner of the company for whom I do most of my consulting is a genuine expert on these devices and even holds a couple patents on very interesting Tesla-inspired variants that do not require liquid metal contacts. I met Trombley back in the ISSO days--he is someone whose liquid-metal contact patent was in fact "suppressed" under the military secrets provisions of the patent laws...very interesting days, those.
Lately I have been experimenting with contacts of Gal-In-Stan, the eutectic alloy of gallium, tin, and indium, which is liquid at room temperature and has nearly zero vapor pressure. It wets just about everything, unlike mercury, and is supposed to be non-toxic. The lack of vapor pressure makes it good for use under hard vacuum, but it does tend to make a mess, and it will oxidize and develop a scum if not isolated from the atmosphere like with a cover of vac oil.


That was it, the Marinov/Nikolayev motor you built and left behind. That one ran current through the bearings correct? Seems there would be some nasty losses during the magnetic moment torque inversions there. That Gal-In-Stan sounds interesting. I haven't read up on it yet. I used to play around with Gallium up at CSI - "Melts in your hand, not in your flask" Very Happy. And I have a borrowed brick of 99.99 Indium here within arms reach (inside two sealed barriers). It has a much higher melting temp. It's interesting how alloying materials (like lead and tin) can change the melting properties. At CSI we would melt Gallium and vaporize Arsenic under temperature and pressure, then using the Horizontal Bridgeman Growers we would initiate a freeze zone in the molten alloy at the face of the seed crystal (the orintation of which is critical and was aligned using X-ray photography). By carefully moving the freeze zone by ramping two electric heating elements in opposite directions, we would grow single crystalline Gallium-Arsenide. We had 12 growers running around the clock and couldn't keep up with the demand. The Indium Phosphide project failed as we did not have the technology needed at the time to accurate react to the explosive pressure changes during the Indium melt and Phosphorus vaporization period. I told Mr. Alred that we needed to lengthen the ampule and deal with the phosphor expansion independantly, but he and his doctor friends were working on a special quartz bellows to adapt to the pressure changes. The delays in the gas valves that let in the hydrogen were too great and inevitably the stress would fracture the ampule, the phosphor would escape and ignite when contacting the heaters and the hydrogen would then combust obliterating the project. Each time the heaters would need replaced and the entire growth chamber would need scrubbed, even back through the inlet tubes and mass flow controllers that often needed replaced afterward. In retrospect after 27 years of contemplation it is possible that the new crystal formed was ultra sensitive to the ambient light produced by the heaters and generated a photoelectric charge. Under the right conditions this may have been igniting the hydrogen counter pressure and imploding the ampule. Perhaps they should have experiemented with other frequencies of thermal production.

Is there any reason you began working with the the Marinov/Nikolayev model rather than the Tewari / De Palma version?

Cheers,

Harvey
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Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:54 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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I figured out a way to use a specially-wound coil to emulate the current paths in the ring of the Marinov "Siberian Coilu (or Coliu)" so-called by Marinov because Nikolayev was from Siberia. So in that incarnation, no, I was not using the bearings for electrical contacts. Marinov also explored, as you probably know, a pure "ball-bearing" motor. The conventional explanations of why this motor works are unsatisfactory. It will not self start, is non-directional (it will spin either way regardless of polarity) and seems to want to accelerate without limit (until losses accumulate of course) with high current DC, once given the tiniest initial spin.
I initially investigated the Siberian Coilu for ISSO as an assigned task; the DePalma-Trombley-Tewari stuff was already pretty well shot down by then and since it required large and complicated apparatus it wasn't very appealing to me. We did schedule an investigation into some of DePalma's gyroscope claims, but Firmage ran out of money before we got around to actual experimentation (although I did build some apparatus, and modified a mechanical Mettler analytic balance to accommodate electrical feeds to a device sitting on the pan...)
Here is a pic of the underside of the Marinov "slab" showing the coil (it's not as simple as it looks), the Hall sensor, the LRFs, and the back side of the circuit board. It's basically a pulse motor, but there is an anomalous effect when the armature back-reaction is examined. That is, there doesn't appear to be any, It too will go either way regardless of coil polarity, with the Hall sensor in a central position. But the sensor can be moved to bias the unit for unidirectional rotation and self-starting.

And here is a small homopolar generator that I designed, that also doesn't need brushes because of the clever current path I figured out. The magnets are embedded in the plastic disk in the middle of the "sandwich". The metal disks remain stationary and the inner disk is mechanically rotated; current is drawn at the terminals on the outer disks, one of which is visible in the pic.

Very interesting accounts of crystal growing. Sounds like CSI was an interesting place to work. I love it when stuff blows up (as long as I don't have to pay for it...) Very Happy
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Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:53 am PostPost subject:
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Those are both very cool. I'm surprised that with the unexplained effects the motor was set aside and not fully researched.

That generator is pretty small, how much power did you derive from that?

Yeah, I miss CSI. The company had 3 divisions and I ended up working at all 3. Equipment, Materials and Research. The materials division was split into two locations and the research division was housed at the materials growth center while the machine shop, maintenance department (which I was originally hired to manage) and materials processing center were in the same location. The equipment division (which manufactured growers, epitaxial reactors and custom things like that) was over in Irwindale. Eventually the company moved. Materials and research moved to Utah and Equipment moved to Tigard Oregon. I stayed behind with my wife as she was pregnant and we decided the move was too much at the time. After my son was born we took a trip to Oregon to see if any positions were still open and found the company downsizing. I was out of touch for many years and only called Utah a couple of times since. Worth Alred still remembered me which was amazing for how much time had passed and all the different projects that he had occupied himself with since. You can Google him and find that he was involved with a couple of business and such but nothing I've read gives him the credit he is due. His materials division almost single handedly boosted the introduction of LED technology into mainstream use. He invented square crystals which offered a minimum of waste at a price that promoted the use. He was trying to apply those designs to the Indium Phosphide when the project was shelved.

I was priveldged to provide the design and production of his poly-generator machines that were used for the mass generation of polycrystalline GaAs laser windows. I was also used to provide the electrical design of a smaller epitaxial reactor for Plessy. One of the highlights was a huge grower we built for Intel that we dubbled the Hydrogen Bomb. It was about 20 feet long and had a tube about 2 feet in diameter that they intended to fill with hydrogen during the growth process. It had blowout expansion boxes that worked on the reliance of foil puncture strength and to our surprise they worked as designed under the pressure tests.

You like the blowing up stuff? One day we had a power failure at the growth center. 8 machines in process. One of the workers was looking through the view window port (which was just a quartz cup wedged between the heating elements) and was commenting on the rapid dendritic growth caused by the cooling. Worth was walking by and he said "I wouldn't be looking at those like that if I were you" and the kid (probably 24 or so) stood up straight and asked why. Worth motioned him outside with the rest of the crew and no sooner had he cleared the bay door the eyepiece blew off the machine and impacted the reflective cardboard insulation stapled between the rafters, putting a nice hole in it - that was about an 15 foot distance as the roof was about 18 feet up and the machines were about 3 feet off the floor. I expressed my concerns regarding the Arsenic cloud that followed and Mr. Alred assured us there was no danger. Stunk it did, but he thought it smelled like matches. Thats when I figured they must have been putting some phosphor in the mix Wink

Cool
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Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:46 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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The little hpgen is only capable of a few milliVolts output so the least resistance will kill it, but if you have a really low-impedance load and a high-impedance metering system you can see several amps at a couple milliVolts. Depending of course on how fast you can spin the silly thing.

Which brings up Tewari's and DePalma's basic error: they saw that as rpm increased, output increased faster, in the range they were able to achieve. So naturally they extrapolated to the point where output surpassed input, if only they could spin the silly things fast enough (and refine the designs by expending increased expenditures of expensive money). Alas, an asymptote may look like a straight line if you squint enough, but it's still an asymptote.
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