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Lessons Learned - Whipmag Phase I

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Wed May 07, 2008 9:28 pm PostPost subject: Lessons Learned - Whipmag Phase I
Yadaraf
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RE: Centralized Source of Information for Whipmag Phase I

We've all learned numerous lessons since the infamous January 4th video. One problem, however, is that those lessons are scattered across several forums, dozens of threads, and are further obscured by "reply chatter." Thus, with this thread, the primary goal is to centralize information that heretofore has been scattered about, but which nonetheless might be critical to reproducing the Whipmag effect. To some degree I will be taking on the responsibility of an archivist. Rolling Eyes A second goal is to help new replicators avoid repeating mistakes in what appears to be the advent of "Whipmag Phase II."

I like the PESWikii site and have begun the process of updating questionable content that Al has since clarified. As you might know, recently a replicator relied on PESWiki for some parts information, which was sadly out of date. Crying or Very sad

If you have any "Lessons Learned" that you would like to add to the PESWiki site, I will be very glad to add them for you. This includes clarification of parts and protocol. Cool

LESSONS LEARNED

RE: AGW Synch
During rotor spindown tests from 1200 RPM, AGW sync appears to drop out at around 290 RPM, at which time the stator spins GW at 2 x the rotor RPM as opposed to 4 x.
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=5115#5115

RE: Starting the Whipmag (Yada, Al)
It appears that a minimum of three stators are needed to "start" the Whipmag. Al has said: I know I said that I was unable to get it "started" using my manual spin method unless the 2 "idler" stators were in place.
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=4347#4347

RE: Magneto Kinetic Judson Dampers (Yada, lostcauses)
The damper is anchored by a 4-40 screw (0.112" diameter), but because the damper hole is 3/16" (0.1875") to match the 834DIA, there is ~0.075" play available for adjusting the position of the damper. In additon and perphaps more important there is also some rotational tuning "I doubt if the effect of 0.075" variance in their position could be noticed with ordinary instrumentation. The rotational tuning refers to positioning wrt anisotropies (possible) in the extruded bar stock from which the dampers were made, not a geometric out-of-round or asymmetry. "

Al describes the MKJD as:6061-T6 extruded aluminum bar stock, machined to the exact dimensions of the stator magnets (except I really did use a 3/16 hole, the magnets are a bit bigger here), spaced and oriented by trial and error, and in my unit, the pre-drilled holes for the stator magnets seemed close enough to the sweet positions so I just used them.

Al's personal Lesson Learned: I had machined several "dummy" magnets out of 6061-T6 before my stator magnets arrived from K&J. Much later, when I was searching for a cure for the instability dropout, I experimented with these dummies. They seemed to work as desired, so I renamed them. The rest, as they say, is History.
Arrow http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=6#Item_33

RE: Stator Bearings (Yada)
The original bearings were unmarked Stewart Warner, and a source was never identified. Dimensions are 0.500" O.D. x 0.125" I.D, x 0.1875" W. Al recommends using Boca Bearings, and the closest match appears to have the following dimensions: 0.500 x 0.125 x 0.171. The 4-40 screw that anchors the bearing is undersized (diameter = ~0.112") and it's possible that the bearings "assume a more or less random position within the limits allowed by the screw," thus potentially contributing to stator positioning inaccuracies.
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3437#3437
Arrow Boca: http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=3153&n=R2A-ZZ
It has been suggested that cermamic bearings be tried, but at least one replicator reports unsatisfactory results.
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3987#3987

Concerning bearing lubrication and speed tests:
Al: I tried to remove the shields from the bearings early on but gave up, it was too hard to do easily, and I didn't want to chance flmping up the bearings, so I just left them in place. I believe I washed the bearings out with wd-40 and blew dry with comp. air, just once each, before I assembled anything. I usually do this with most ball bearing sets, because I use surplus stuff a lot and they are generally packed with preservative grease. It is possible that I used one of two other lubricants, instead of WD-40. One is called "mosquito oil" and it is a very light oil containing Teflon sold for lubricating a tool used for sharpening skates. The other is CL-1 bicycle chain lube from Park Tool Co. which also is extremely light and contains Teflon. I also like Marvel Mystery Oil, but it is hard to find in Canada.

Al: ... like around 3800-4000 rpm, that's basically whizzing it as fast as I can with the trick "thumbflip" method I've developed... 4-5 seconds to spin down from there.
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=5272#5272

RE: Metal Tables (Yada w. Al edit)
Al recently commented that he first tested the Whipmag on a wooden table and noticed that a stray screwdriver affected performance. In the Jan 4th video, Al used a metal table and commented as follows about the performance: "Yet the unit worked perfectly well sitting on a metal table for the video--probably because the field distortion was uniform in the latter case, and orthogonal to the behavior of interest. "
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3599#3599
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3661#3661

RE: Shock Mount Spindle (Yada w. Al edit)
The spindle used in the Jan 4th video included a "flex mount" and not simply a 1/4-20 shaft. The flex mount permits "a nutation sort of motion" and thus some circular rotor wobble might occur, which in turn might influence the Whipmag effect.
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3300#3300
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3661#3661

RE: Rotor Magnet Strength (Yada)
Although we do not know the true grade of the rotor magnets in the Jan 4th video, they were repel-tested and appear to have a strength between N35 and N40.
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3544#3544

Concerning Size:
Al also commented that he's never removed his rotor magnets, and instead measured similar magnets from stock. The length of the magnets is a little odd as well, and not 0.500" +/- 0.002", but rather 0.530" to 0.540" -- close to 14 mm (Note: 9/16" = 14.29 mm)
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=5025#5025

RE: OC_Motor_xxxxxx.PDF (Yada)
The original author has agreed to make minor revisions to the log document in those areas where there were previously questionable. Comments are welcome.
Arrow http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_012708.pdf

RE: CW Reverse Spins to AGW and then Back (Yada)
Several investigators have observed the following: "Occasionally when the rotor is slowing down and at low rpm [guess at 100-200rpm] a CW stator suddenly does a reverse spin, speeds up really fast [maybe 5 times original rpm, can't measure it here] then flips back to CW rotation. This only takes maybe 1 second and is over with before you know it. Eventually of course everything comes to a stop. "
Arrow http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3609#3609


In addition, I am writing a program to data mine the various forum replies for other interesting content, but haven't decided how to make that info available.

Lastly, "Lessons Learned" is a subjective concept, and for some investigators these lessons will be "old news." Also, this thread is not intended for discussion, but if a debate occurs over a "Lesson Learned" I will be glad to condense the outcome and present it at PESWiki.

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Last edited by Yadaraf on Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:07 am; edited 17 times in total
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Wed May 07, 2008 10:18 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Umm, thanks, Yada, for keeping up with this. Although I was a bit distressed to see Yet Another Thread pop up that I have to read, I see that the intent is to consolidate information and of that I heartily approve.
I hope I may be allowed to comment now and then.
For example in the first point, what I actually posted was this: "probably because the field distortion was uniform in the latter case, and orthogonal to the behavior of interest" which is a bit different from saying that the filed distortion was favorable. Rather I am saying that it may have been irrelevant.
Second point: there has been some quibbling about the "shock mount" which is more properly sort of a "flex mount" as it is rather stiff and only allows a "nutation" sort of motion of the spindle.
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Thu May 08, 2008 1:20 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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alsetalokin wrote:
Umm, thanks, Yada, for keeping up with this. Although I was a bit distressed to see Yet Another Thread pop up that I have to read, I see that the intent is to consolidate information and of that I heartily approve.
I hope I may be allowed to comment now and then.
For example in the first point, what I actually posted was this: "probably because the field distortion was uniform in the latter case, and orthogonal to the behavior of interest" which is a bit different from saying that the filed distortion was favorable. Rather I am saying that it may have been irrelevant.
Second point: there has been some quibbling about the "shock mount" which is more properly sort of a "flex mount" as it is rather stiff and only allows a "nutation" sort of motion of the spindle.

@Al,

Many thanks for the feedback. If you look at the original post, you'll see that I've edited the Lessons Learned per your reply. Thus, the top post in this thread will be dynamic and expansive. If you have lessons to share, please be my guest -- I will be glad to add them to the top post. Cool

EDIT: I used the term "favorable," because it seemed that the metal table would mute the effect of nearby screwdrivers, unlike the wooden table.

P.S. Sorry for the additional thread, but I think we're in Phase II and need to reduce some of the frustration for the new investigators. Also, the number of "Lessons Learned" is finite and small IMHO.

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Thu May 08, 2008 5:35 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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Added Stator Bearing Lesson to top post

.. Lessons Learned: http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3658#3658

Cheers Smile
Yada..
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Tue May 13, 2008 7:37 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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Added Magneto Kinetic Judson Damper Lesson to top post

.. Lessons Learned: http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3658#3658

Cheers
Yada..
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Wed May 14, 2008 8:09 pm PostPost subject: ceramic bearings
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Hi Yadaraf

I do not recommend using ceramic bearings - they have too much play in them for any of the rotors (even if you double them up for stability). I bought some expensive full ceramic 1/2" bearings from VBX.com and they were easily out performed by standard bearings. Steer well clear!
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Wed May 14, 2008 8:27 pm PostPost subject: Re: ceramic bearings
Yadaraf
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greenemso wrote:
Hi Yadaraf

I do not recommend using ceramic bearings - they have too much play in them for any of the rotors (even if you double them up for stability). I bought some expensive full ceramic 1/2" bearings from VBX.com and they were easily out performed by standard bearings. Steer well clear!

@greenemso,

Many thanks for the feedback about ceramic bearings. I haven't seen any reports on this, but then I don't recall every reply. Rolling Eyes I've updated the top post.

Cheers Smile
Yada..
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Wed May 14, 2008 10:57 pm PostPost subject:
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adding to this thread.



alsetalokin wrote:
The whole story of the development of the dampers and various experiments with them is in the documents, I think--it was a long time ago--the dampers add a slight drag that is zero at stator rest (so it doesn't affect starting) and increases with stator speed (so it effectively limits the speed to a value below that which produces the instability that is visible in the video you linked.)
You could probably achieve the same effect with any number of different configurations and positions. I had machined several "dummy" magnets out of 6061-T6 before my stator magnets arrived from K&J. Much later, when I was searching for a cure for the instability dropout, I experimented with these dummies. They seemed to work as desired, so I renamed them. The rest, as they say, is History.

Or a very bad novel. One or the other."


factorfiction wrote:
alsetalokin:

Thank you for the info.

Therefore the unit accelerated before the dampers were deemed necessary?"

alsetalokin replied wrote:
"I'd say the behavior was pretty much identical to what the video you linked, showed. As acceleration started, instability caused the stator to "drop out" of AGW."
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Wed May 14, 2008 11:37 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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lostcauses wrote:
I had machined several "dummy" magnets out of 6061-T6 before my stator magnets arrived from K&J. Much later, when I was searching for a cure for the instability dropout, I experimented with these dummies. They seemed to work as desired, so I renamed them. The rest, as they say, is History.

@lostcauses,

Thanks for the interesting history lesson from Al. It seemed relevant to Lessons Learned, so I updated the top post.

Cheers,
Yada..
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Wed May 21, 2008 1:52 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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Added Lesson Learned for "Starting the Whipmag."

.. top: http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3658#3658

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:48 am PostPost subject:
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Added material for stator bearing lube and testing.

.. top: http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3658#3658

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:08 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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Added material to Rotor Magnet lesson.

Added 290 RPM AGW lesson.

.. top: http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3658#3658

Cheers Smile
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Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:11 pm PostPost subject:
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I was involved in a little debate over at Steorn.com and to help make my point, I created a list of interesting behaviors we have seen. I'm copying it here for quick reference. If I missed something or if you have any corrections or additional comments, let me know and I will edit appropriately.

===================

Effect #1)

Alsetalokin first described AGW stator synchronization on Dec 31, 2007
(text below because the link may not resolve to the correct post, due to whispers in the thread)

http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=5#Item_42

The effect has been independently reproduced by most if not all WhipMag replicators, estimated over 100.

Please provide references where this effect has been previously described. Or show how this effect is "obvious", based on prior scientific theories or knowledge.


Many seem to think this is nothing notable. I disagree. Consider the WhipMag gearing like an automobile automatic transmission.

1) Get things rolling forward, in "drive" at 100 KPH (spin up the whipmag with natural GW sychronization)
2) Place the transmission in "neutral" and coast (stop one of the stators)
3) Now shove the transmission into "reverse" and press on the accelerator (spin the stator the opposite direction at high speed)


==============================================

I have described earlier how the stator magnets rotate as if geared to the rotor, but in a slightly agitated motion, and in the asymmetrical 7x8 variation that I have been playing with (and AFAIK in all variants with 8 rotor magnets) the stator magnets rotate twice for each rotor revolution. In opposite directions. That is, rotor goes clockwise, stator magnet goes counterclockwise.

Still with me?

Now, I ask you to imagine the stator magnet rotating in the same direction as the rotor. Both going clockwise, very non-gear-like. Now, if things are turning fast enough, we might be able to get into a situation where the timing sort of reverses, or something, and extremely interesting things begin to happen, or at least become possible.
So, now I need to ask for someone with the interest to do some math.

I have already given the relevant dimensions in an earlier post. So, hypothetically speaking if I were to get the rotor spinning at, say, 400 rpm by spinning it by hand; then quickly spin a stator magnet in the same direction by flipping it with a finger, could there be some resonant alignment of the fields that would make it "catch hold" and continue spinning at 1600 rpm (4 x rotor rpm), both rotor and stator magnet going clockwise?

Now suppose this relationship continued locked in phase as the assembly gradually accelerates until reaching a maximum measured rpm of 1904 rpm for the rotor, and 7633 rpm for the stator magnet, both rotating clockwise.

=======================

Effect #2

Harvey's rotation by oscillation anomaly, Feb 28, 2008

http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=2677#2677
http://urad.net/forums/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=18

After some research, we learned this effect was aleady known and patented by Donald Kelly in 1978
http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat4179633.pdf

There are a number of differences from the patented device. Nevertheless, the effect was already known.

=======================

Effect #3

OC's bobbing stator, May 19, 2008

http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=4254#4254
http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/ll48/overconfident/wacko/?action=viewt=020.flv

No prior records describing this effect have been found yet.

=======================

Effect #4

Harvey's counterintuitive rotor reaction,

http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=5873#5873
http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=5876#5876
http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=5906#5906
http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=5985#5985

OC experimental procedure and illustrations of the experiment
http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=5962#5962

The rotor turns in the opposite direction from what appears to be the closest and strongest attractive magnetic field. Lostcauses has noted that there is a dependency on the distance between the rotor and stator magnets and possibly on the spacing of the rotor magnets. When the magnets are spaced more closely, the rotor will turn in the expected direction. As the spacing increases to a point Harvey calls the "magnetic event horizon", the rotor will turn opposite to the expected direction. We have not found any references to this behavior in the literature, although MADPROF has identified similar behavior in the Ball-in-Bowl experiments:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEY0jpsnwbg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqEd3KHuEHU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN26IQJbsuY

=======================

Effect #5

Yadaraf's GW-AGW-GW flipping

http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=4489#4489
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W-v8i_7x28

This experiment shows how the stator can instantly flip from GW synchronization to AGW and back again at lower speeds. It can also sometimes flip from AGW to GW at very high speeds when sync is lost. Replicated by several investigators.
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Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:52 am PostPost subject:
Mr.Entropy
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OC,

These effects are all boring, not because they have been previously documented, but because they are predicted by the well-known, energy-conserving physics of magnets. (Well, effect #5 is still pretty neat)

Al's anomalous acceleration is not predicted by the well-known, energy-conserving physics of magnets.
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Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:25 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Mr.Entropy wrote:
OC,

These effects are all boring, not because they have been previously documented, but because they are predicted by the well-known, energy-conserving physics of magnets. (Well, effect #5 is still pretty neat)

Al's anomalous acceleration is not predicted by the well-known, energy-conserving physics of magnets.


I agree that these effects are nowhere near as exciting as Al's acceleration and long runs, but these are the "interesting" things the rest of us mere mortals have noticed and have been able to reliably reproduce. They may be boring, but it's all most of us have been able to accomplish. Hopefully that will all change with WhipMag II.
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Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:10 am PostPost subject:
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Mr. Entropy,

I'd be very interested in seeing your prediction datum for the AGW function as well as the single polar slip demonstrated in Effect #2 if such predictions even exist.

It is one thing to state that the energy of a system is to remain constant and then boringly yawn at the various losses after such a statement is made, and quite another to 'predict' unusual behavior or actions that have never been documented or when they have, were never fully investigated as to the overall ramifications of the findings. I fear that you may suffer greatly from NIH syndrome to boldly label these events as boring. But then again, look at how many scholars yawned and walked away from Teslas demonstrations. Perhaps it was because of their lack of skill to prove him wrong or right. Of course when Edison began electrocuting animals I suppose a few of those yawns may have perked up a bit.

I am thankful that the those with the funds to do so, gave Tesla the go ahead in building the Niagra Falls generating station according to his guidelines. You ever place a 60Hz xfmr next to a 50Hz xfmr?

I predict that one day you will regret using the term 'boring' with regards to these effects. Even Tesla considered his cold plasma in the wooden box a parlor trick and today the Military still can't get it resolved.

But then again...who are we to compare such observations of effects to the great works of Tesla. I can't help but think how boring it must have been to watch all those idots trying to make heavier than air flying machines. Don't they know the predictions state it cannot be done? Mr. Green

Make your comments worthy of our readers. Apply that great mathematical mind to the formulation of the AGW 'predicted' effect.

Respectfully,

Harvey
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Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:23 pm PostPost subject:
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Mr. Entropy,
Hmm Not sure what to say on this. Yea AGW in itself it not so great.

Yet one must speculate that the system used to achieve Al,s third effect is not just AGW. So this is were the things posted by OC et all do have value to be able to see the possibility of the sytem to come together and work as Al,s does.

Take Harvey's action of the fields bending so the attraction pole bypasses the repulsive pole on rotor. Can you not see this as one of the main reasons for AGW?

Take the ball in the bowl, the reverse motion appears as a function of distance from the magnet.
Why?

I already have said the effect Shown by Harvey et all is a effect of distance in the layout of the rotor magnets on the whip mag, as well as strength of magnets to spacing. Even long magnets may not show that effect. Do not discount this thing as being a part of the system.
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Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:22 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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"Al's anomalous acceleration is not predicted by the well-known, energy-conserving physics of magnets."


And why do you believe this?
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Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:14 am PostPost subject:
Mr.Entropy
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@Harvey,

perhaps "boring" was too strong a word. Many of these effects are neat, because they are somewhat counter-intuitive, like a SMOT, or like the repulsive zone near the entrance to a SMOT. But when you hold them up next to the anomalous accelleration, they do indeed look quite boring. It's a matter of expectations.

The analogy with Tesla's detractors is specious. There is no debate here. Nobody disagrees that effects 1-5 happen. And I'm the guy who thinks Al might have a free energy machine (and is not afraid to say so anonymously Smile ), so why are you throwing the Wright brothers at me? Effects 1-5 are not the miracle of powered flight. They are wingtip vortices -- notable phenomena, and relevant to performance, but not the miracle of powered flight.

With regard to the formulation of the AGW effect, I've done that in other threads -- even provided a nice graph. Also note that when I say "predicted by well known physics of magnets", I don't mean "predicted by me". I mean that the well-known laws of physics for magents allow you to derive the effects from the initial conditions.

@lostcauses,

The conservation of energy makes some things easy to figure. After Al stops the idlers and then releases them, the system accelerates for some time and then continues to spin, disspiating energy all the while. During this time, there is no energy input from Al (his hands are off), and yet we see the kinetic energy in the system increase. We do not see any signficant, progressive change to the state of the system inidicating a decrease in potential energy that could account for this.

So I am quite comfortable in saying that no accurate simulation of the well-known laws of physics could possibly predict the anomalous acceleration in the system that we have seen in the video. You can't have that increase in kinetic energy without potential energy decreasing in lock step.

There are only two possible conclusions I can come to. a) There is some important part of the system that we can't see; or b) There are some important physics that we don't know, i.e., an unknown well of potential energy being tapped (not the magnets' fields!), or a macroscopic violation of one of the laws of thermodynamics.

I bet Al thinks there is a 3rd possibility. I would really like to see him argue that case.

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy
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Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:16 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Mr. Entropy
If the information is such as we have seen, an overlap of some variations may allow this thing to do what Al,s shows. Hey the earth has yet to fall into the sun, yet it is still in a conservative situation.

Right now we all are all kinda like trying to follow the monkey that has randomly typed the works of Shakespeare using random typing.

We are trying to observe the effects as we go and apply them to the end result.

Hey but we have the one who got there to try and help us, also including him and all all the rest we may come up with an understanding and replication.

LOL not an easy task.
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