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New design ideas

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Sun May 04, 2008 4:13 pm PostPost subject: New design ideas
overconfident
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Now that I've had some time to play with a replica, I've been thinking about ways we might improve the WhipMag and try some different configurations.

I'll start out with some simple thoughts. Remember those toy gyroscopes we all played with as kids? The spinning disc was attached directly to the shaft, using simple spindle/cup bearings, with a simple hole in the shaft so you can use a string to spin it up.

Here's a simple gyro. Now imagine a 6" rotor mounted solidly to a base, with a ring around the outside to mount the stators. Just pull the string to spin it up.

http://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=MINIGYRO

Thoughts?

OC
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Sat May 24, 2008 4:27 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Another thought ...

What would happen if we connected the rotor and stator shafts with some elastic material and a strain sensor to detect changes in tension?

OC
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Sat May 24, 2008 9:21 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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overconfident wrote:
Another thought ...

What would happen if we connected the rotor and stator shafts with some elastic material and a strain sensor to detect changes in tension?

OC


That would definitely define any torque varience that shouldn't be there Smile

I liked this demo too Smile

http://www.gyroscope.com/youtube.asp?movie=F7fJR2qpN6A
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Sun May 25, 2008 4:42 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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Harvey wrote:
overconfident wrote:
Another thought ...

What would happen if we connected the rotor and stator shafts with some elastic material and a strain sensor to detect changes in tension?

OC


That would definitely define any torque varience that shouldn't be there Smile

I liked this demo too Smile

http://www.gyroscope.com/youtube.asp?movie=F7fJR2qpN6A

OC,

I would think big on this one.



Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Sun May 25, 2008 5:13 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@Yada, that shouldn't take too many years. Tell Jodie it won't be too long.
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Sun May 25, 2008 8:30 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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overconfident wrote:
@Yada, that shouldn't take too many years. Tell Jodie it won't be too long.


Right, I'll get right on it...now where did I put those prints....'think 3D, think 3D, think 3D --- '

Wink

Ah...now I remember, they were digitized for the halographic projector...which isn't done yet Sad
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Sun May 25, 2008 7:14 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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overconfident wrote:
@Yada, that shouldn't take too many years. Tell Jodie it won't be too long.

OC,

No problem. Jodie is an old friend.

I met her in 5555, when her arms were hanging limp at her sides and her legs had nothing to do, because some machine was doing that for her, too.

In 6565, even though she didn't need a husband and I didn't need a wife, we picked our son -- and our daughter, too -- from the bottom of a long glass tube. We had an amicable separtation in 7510, when she thought that God was a-coming. She became paranoid thinking that he would say something like "Guess it's time for the Judgement Day." I couldn't deal with it.

We haven't spoken since 9595, and now I'm kinda wonderin' if she's still alive. She took everything this old earth could give, but put back nothin'.

I'll get back to you yesterday, after I've cried a billiion tears.

Cheers Smile
Yada..
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Sun May 25, 2008 10:36 pm PostPost subject:
Pageygeeza
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You are going in the right direction with the gyroscope. A flywheel is essential for it to work. Look at a car engine: It's basically a massive self propelled flywheel. And the other thing to remember is that an engine can't start itself without the help of a starter motor, so it needs the motor to get it spinning upto idle speed. If someone made a whipmag on a heavy flywheel and maybe had a starting system like a gyroscope, there maybe more positive results. Smile
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Wed May 28, 2008 6:57 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Electro-Magnetic Rotor [only 1 of the 8 electromagnets are shown. The internal wiring to the 'slip rings' (commutator) is not shown] This design is ment to be a 'custom made circular circuit board' mounted on top of a plastic rotor.

Connected to a variable power supply, the electromagnets can be easily adjusted for testing.

Lots of room here to refine/improve the design.

Axle
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Fri May 30, 2008 9:32 am PostPost subject:
Lakes
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Not wanting to create another new thread, I ll put this here....

I was watching this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTGxrLqCOCo&feature=related
and immediately thought of OC and his vortex dreams.
Check out the video from 9:30 onwards, remind you of anything? Smile
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Fri May 30, 2008 3:46 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@Lakes,

Nice, but only monochromatic, monopolar, and 2 dimensional. I especially like the "bounce".
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Fri May 30, 2008 4:11 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Lakes wrote:
Not wanting to create another new thread, I ll put this here....

I was watching this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTGxrLqCOCo&feature=related
and immediately thought of OC and his vortex dreams.
Check out the video from 9:30 onwards, remind you of anything? Smile


Unfortunately Stan is giving 2d support for a 3d event and supposes the vortices are columnar. He is correct as far as the wave mechanics are concerned, but these events occur spherically not planarly. It is an assumption by both Einstein and Stan that these events only occur on the surface of space-time when in reality they occur more often in the middle of it.

It's good to see real world experimentation with these structures though Smile

I find it interesting that with all the examples of curved space no one has mentioned that the model depends on a separate force to explain the event. IOW, a ball rolls down a curved hill because gravity pulls it down the hill. Likewise, in the model of a depression in curved space we see the planets rolling down the depression toward the mass producing the depression - the depression is supposed to explain gravity. If the depression itself (the hill) is gravity, then what is the other force causing it to roll? For this to work (which I do believe it does) there must be another force outside those mentioned that causes the movement. Consider if we turn the model upside down, then what would happen? Space-time itself must exert this missing force and it does so spherically at both the subatomic and astronomical scales. Wink
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Fri May 30, 2008 11:14 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Consider the case of the traditional representation of the flat sheet with the funnels leading down to masscons. Now eliminate that external gravity, but keep the funnel representation. Now take a ball bearing and give it some initial velocity (You yourself are the Force, O mighty invisible rabbit). Its "world line" if you will, doesn't depend on gravity to take it down the funnels--assuming that it sticks to the sheet and rolls without slipping, it will follow a (to the external observer) curved path when near a funnel. As long as the rolling sphere sticks to the sheet, it will work even upside down in an external field.
But you are right anyway, in spite of this.
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Sat May 31, 2008 5:42 am PostPost subject:
Axle
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Adjustable 'magnet diameter/spacing' rotor.
1/4 inch dia. threaded brass rods into an octagonal plastic rotor.

'Rough Draft'...needs to be refined some.

Axle
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Sat May 31, 2008 7:26 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Interesting design Axle. In my case I had intended to lay the magents in rectangular slots 0.5" x 1.5". I was then going to use spacer blocks 0.5" x 0.5" in conjuction with thin .001" shims to adjust the distance. This way I could place the rotor magnets at point in the slot without compromising the mass distribution too much.

I never finished this work because I came to realize that it would change the intersection of vector B for each magnet and consequently the shape of the fields.

Since we already know conculsively the radial distance for each magnet, I decided it was more important to determine the strength instead. This part of the equation is problematic because as of yet Al has not given us the surface gauss readings. Consequently I have been experimenting with different sizes and shapes of N42 magnets to see if I can approximate similar behavior as observed in Al's videos and posts. What we need is a ratio between stator gauss and rotor gauss. This way we can minimize calibration variances in the gauss reading equipment.

Your proposed design has the unsavory effect of eddy currents and thus counter fields being produced in the brass parts. You may want to use nylon instead.

Cheers,
Cool
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Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:50 am PostPost subject:
Pageygeeza
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Has anyone ever thought of mounting the magnets diagnoally to the edge of the rotational matter?
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Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:24 am PostPost subject:
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Pageygeeza wrote:
Has anyone ever thought of mounting the magnets diagnoally to the edge of the rotational matter?


I've seen experiments with all sorts of configurations. The most recent had the magnets inserted with the axial vertical.

I think the current focus is to build replicas as close to the original as possible and systematically chart the results.
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:02 am PostPost subject:
Pageygeeza
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One thing i've noticed with Whipmags is there is no synch between the two wheels. Another piont i've realised is that the ultimate goal would be to drive an electrical generator of sorts. Most, not all of the designs i've seen so far are too light and the weight of the main wheel would need to be heavier to drive a generator. Another thing to bear in mind is a flywheel needs to be brought up to optimum running speed, once at that speed the magnets would keep it at that speed rather then trying to get the magnets to speed it up.
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:57 pm PostPost subject:
cloud camper
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Quote:
One thing i've noticed with Whipmags is there is no synch between the two wheels. Another piont i've realised is that the ultimate goal would be to drive an electrical generator of sorts. Most, not all of the designs i've seen so far are too light and the weight of the main wheel would need to be heavier to drive a generator. Another thing to bear in mind is a flywheel needs to be brought up to optimum running speed, once at that speed the magnets would keep it at that speed rather then trying to get the magnets to speed it up.


Don't even think about direct gearing between the rotor and stator. That would totally kill any magnetic shearing that is currently employed in the effect.

Don't even think about adding an alternator at this point. You would need a Whipmag as big as your house to even contemplate this as so little power is being generated. In addition, typical alternator efficiencies are only around 65%.
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:19 pm PostPost subject:
Pageygeeza
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There is another way people have not thought of. Think of car engine principals. Wink
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:25 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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Pageygeeza wrote:
There is another way people have not thought of. Think of car engine principals. Wink


Flywheel, Ring gear, Starter Motor Wink
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:28 pm PostPost subject:
Pageygeeza
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Close, but i'm thinking more of pistons.
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:48 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Just ask yourself...how many pistons are on the compression stroke at the same time? How many are on the firing stroke? Where does all the energy come from to intake and exhaust the others, compress the one and drive the vehicle?

I've posted this before elsewhere, but lets compare gasoline to electric:

Using US Dollars.
Lets assume a car only gets 12mpg @ 60MPH with a 200HP motor. It will consume 5 gallons an hour. (at current prices thats about 20.00 per hour - good thing most people drive less than 3 hours a day).

Now lets look at a 200HP electric. And lets assume 100% efficiency. Thats 746W per HP or a total of 149,200W. Now lets assume our motor runs on 120 VDC. So we use 10, 12VDC batteries in series. Now lets assume these are 800 Amp Hour batteries and we can load them down to 8V before our motor starts to suffer. So we are only able to use one third of the power. Thus we have 267 AH available.

P=E * I or put another way Watts = Volts * Amps. So, Amps = Watts / Volts. Our motor will draw 149,200 W / 120 V or 1,243 Amps under full load. (fortunately our car only requires full power during takeoff). So, if our car can be pushed at 60MPH with only 40HP our batteries will just make it to our 1 hour destination under the most ideal conditions.

So how much did this cost? We drove for an hour and used 267A * 120V worth of power, or 32.04KWh. Check your electric bill, what do you pay for a KWh? I just checked a recent bill. For 1200KWh I paid (with taxes and everything) 171.25 (there were alot of extra charges for going over the baselines). So, we are about 14 cents per KWh, or $4.48 per hour in my hypothetical car.

Now, assume we have 20 batteries. Now we can make a return trip. If you run one set until its drained (assuming the terrain averages level) you can use the other set to get back.

This exercise exposes two important details (among many small ones):
1. How much energy is packed into a gallon of gasoline
2. How much cheaper it is to go electric.

Now imagine if we had a Kiril Chukanov generator powering our 18 wheelers and trains throughout the North American Continent. What impact would that have on the Global Economy?

ETA: Chekanov Slide Show
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:06 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Harvey wrote:

Just ask yourself...how many pistons are on the compression stroke at the same time? How many are on the firing stroke? Where does all the energy come from to intake and exhaust the others, compress the one and drive the vehicle?

I've posted this before elsewhere, but lets compare gasoline to electric:

Using US Dollars.
Lets assume a car only gets 12mpg @ 60MPH with a 200HP motor. It will consume 5 gallons an hour. (at current prices thats about 20.00 per hour - good thing most people drive less than 3 hours a day).


Good thing my car gets almost 3x that mileage. My gasoline costs would be closer to $7.00 per hour.

Harvey wrote:

Now lets look at a 200HP electric. And lets assume 100% efficiency. Thats 746W per HP or a total of 149,200W. Now lets assume our motor runs on 120 VDC. So we use 10, 12VDC batteries in series. Now lets assume these are 800 Amp Hour batteries and we can load them down to 8V before our motor starts to suffer. So we are only able to use one third of the power. Thus we have 267 AH available.

P=E * I or put another way Watts = Volts * Amps. So, Amps = Watts / Volts. Our motor will draw 149,200 W / 120 V or 1,243 Amps under full load. (fortunately our car only requires full power during takeoff). So, if our car can be pushed at 60MPH with only 40HP our batteries will just make it to our 1 hour destination under the most ideal conditions.

So how much did this cost? We drove for an hour and used 267A * 120V worth of power, or 32.04KWh. Check your electric bill, what do you pay for a KWh? I just checked a recent bill. For 1200KWh I paid (with taxes and everything) 171.25 (there were alot of extra charges for going over the baselines). So, we are about 14 cents per KWh, or $4.48 per hour in my hypothetical car.

Now, assume we have 20 batteries. Now we can make a return trip. If you run one set until its drained (assuming the terrain averages level) you can use the other set to get back.

This exercise exposes two important details (among many small ones):
1. How much energy is packed into a gallon of gasoline
2. How much cheaper it is to go electric.

Now imagine if we had a Kiril Chukanov generator powering our 18 wheelers and trains throughout the North American Continent. What impact would that have on the Global Economy?


But how much did the car cost? How much did the batteries cost? And how long do they last? And with increased demand, the grid's infrastructure would need to be upgraded. And with demand of course, coal prices would skyrocket as well. And the pollution would not be reduced, just be coming from a different source.

All things considered, it would be just as expensive and would do just as much damage. And how would you deal with a 3,000 mile cross-country trip?
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:14 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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OC wrote:

And the pollution would not be reduced,


Does the Chukanov generator produce any pollution?

ETA: Demand would be for off peak where the grid currently has an excess.
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:17 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Harvey wrote:
OC wrote:

And the pollution would not be reduced,


Does the Chukanov generator produce any pollution?

ETA: Demand would be for off peak where the grid currently has an excess.


I was speaking of the conventional coal-burning power grid.
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Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:19 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@ Harvey

Your $20 of fuel costs me $55 in th UK. BASTARDS Twisted Evil
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Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:31 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Whoa...$11 per gallon? Even if you reversed the exchange rates it would have only been 20.00 GBP = 39.25 USD. And the UK gallon is only 0.832673409748194 against the 1 US gallon so that makes it even worse!

Ok that does it - I'm moving to Venezuela where Gas is only 14 cents a gallon.

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/price.html
(or at least it was in '06 when that data was compiled)

Mr. Green
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Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:19 am PostPost subject:
Pageygeeza
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Good comments made there, but a few are missing the point.

Quote:
What impact would that have on the Global Economy?


Well look at it this way, we won't be thethered to a power/money hungry cartel.

I wasn't suggesting using the magnet enging as an engine, but as a generator. Tbh I can't ever see a magnet generator powering a car, but a self regenerating motor, yes. It would only require one battery, but it would never need to be externally charged, only internally from the motor itself. Wink
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Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:21 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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"You know, its been said that energy cannot be created or destroyed - but I gotta tell ya, mankind sure knows how dissipate it 'till theres not enough left to do a blasted thing with. I guess its a lot like money thata way. It seems like I been doing so much with so little for so long, a fella might think I could do anything with nuthin' in no time at all. We'd all be driven hydrogen powered cars right now if the federal government didn't make it mandatory to have an train engineers license to operate a steam powered vehicle. They deem burnin' hydrogen as steam power. I used to work on those rockets before I retired and seen more aborted than sucessful over the years. I've seen about every kinda fuel they can think of to make stuff go and I think were gunna see gasoline right up to the very end. With Russia just sitting on the biggest reserve on the planet and not a drop being pulled outta there...well, we better hope we got a plan B before the rest of the world uses up what they got."

Vernon Munson (c) 1974
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