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AGW question

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Fri May 09, 2008 6:12 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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lostcauses wrote:
The repulsive area is not were this would gain speed ...


I disagree with this statement. The natural magnetic tendency is to stay in attraction all the time. Just turn your rotor slowly by hand and you will see this.

Attraction is good when the magnets are approaching each other, but when they are separating, the attractive forces work against us and take back all the energy we gained in the approach. The only way I see to minimize the losses on the way out is to reduce the attraction as they separate, or to increase repulsion. Attraction on the way in, repulsion on the way out and we gain both ways.

The problem is making the transition, magnetism alone won't do it. We need to leverage some other force(es) in order to achieve the desired magnetic relationships. The angular momentum of the rotor and stator(s) is one possibility, bearing drag is another, external input is yet another.

The original WhipMag idea was to use rotational inertia (angular momentum of rotor and stator) to achieve the desired, unnatural magnetic relationship and some external form of disruption (latches or a braking mechanism) to maintain it long enough to recover any energy we expend and still have some left over.

I still think this is a good idea, although I'm not aware of anyone who has actually tried it yet. I'm working towards that goal, but it may take a long time before I get there. At the moment, I have been sidetracked, exploring some of the possibilities of eccentric stators and wobbly rotor.

Just my 2 centavos,
OC
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Fri May 09, 2008 6:25 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Sorry OC that part of my mind that reverses things. LOL You are correct.

This item has a place were the magnetic fores oppose the motion of both rotor and stator. Inertia is what is the highest probability to carry it through. Hell unless there is some em force being applied out of sight it is the only force that will carry it through.
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Sat May 10, 2008 1:55 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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I think the best way to view the interactions are in terms of torque. When we speak of repulsion and attraction we are muddying up the picture. This is because both are in effect at all times. The differential between the two effects is driven by the stator angle and rotor postion relative to the stator. OC illustrated this quite well in his force vector pic.

Keeping it simple, there is either positve torque or negative torque, period - regardless of whether it is being driven by repulsion (can be positive or negative) or attraction (can be postive or negative). For those replicators that have tangible models you can verify the torque curve manually by rotating the stator through 180 starting with the equitorial lines aligned and like poles pointing in the same direction. You will clearly see that the first 90 provides postive torque in decreasing value to zero and the subsequent 90 provides negative torque in increasing value upto the next equitorial pass. Immediately traversing this pass you will experience a shift between max neg torque and max pos torque.

For those of you that have computer models - or just mental models - you can simulate the exact same thing. If you think of it logically, imagine the stator with a given pole pointing at the center of the rotor. Imagine the rotor with two like poles facing each other, each the exact same distance from the stator. The stator pole is opposite polarity from the the other two and is thus in attraction and the system is balanced and static. Now turn the stator either direction and it will appear to push the magnet away that you turned it towards. If this seems counter-intuitive then you are on the right track. Understanding the reason for this is critical to comprehending the operation of this device. There are six flux vectors in play to cause this action. Separate them into two groups, 3 inside and 3 outside. The 3 inside are closest to each other, the 3 outside are farthest from each other. When in balance the 3 are equidistant. By turning the stator, we increase the distance between the stator and one outside flux vector while shortening the distance for the other outside flux vector. The shorter path wins and these flux vectors draw together. This explains a typical GW mesh. Remember, the GW and the AGW share the same polar mesh. This means for both modes N faces S and S faces N as the stator passes the rotor midpoint between magnets. The difference between GW and AGW is how the equators pass. For GW the equators pass in an attractive mode and for AGW the equators pass in repulsion. So now that you have a mental picture, from the balanced condition midpoint between rotor magnets, force both the rotor and stator clockwise until the equators are aligned. There is an extremely narrow (molecular) region where these two can be balanced here offering zero torque. But the slightest change one way or the other will put the two at max torque. Mentally rotate the two clockwise advancing the stator 10 for every 2.5 of rotor advance. Can you see the two equators seem to be pushing away from each other? Now, after you have turned the stator 90, the rotor is aligned midpoint between magnets again. The system is balanced and there is zero torque. If you keep going another 90 you will traverse the negative torque.

If all that is too hard to follow you may want to gets some magnets and play around a bit with the concept.

Cheers,

Harvey
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Sat May 10, 2008 6:30 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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LOL basic stuff. I belive it is good to do.
Well now we have a written description of the torque in relation to the fields, look at what goes on with both AGW and GW.

Reality from just that we will get drop out and lock with AGW and GW. From just this point the effect of speeding up would be fake.

So what is the possibility of it happening?

Well from here one must remember force is applied to get the rotor and stators into motion. It has been noted that certain rpm should be reached to get the AGW effect.
Mass is put into motion.

So far other than the report of AG drop out and then going to AGW causing a rotor speed increase the suspected results of just slowing down and stopping is what happens. Strangely enough even in Al's it is stopped or reaches a speed and then slows down and stops.

So what happens in both the drop out GW and Al's effect is what we need to find.


Lets talk about the GW drop and reverse and AGw. Why did in drop out? How is the AGW realy working.
If I apply a strong enough driving force to the rotor does in not slip by the magnetic geared effect? The magnetic forces are minimized due to velocity. The magnetic force could be said to be sheared by this.

Even without friction this can be done due to that nasty inertia effect of mass. Throw in friction and it makes it easer. Best example of this would be an ramp (inclined plane) Place a rotor magnet were it will easly hold the rotor magnet in place.
now start going just a bit above the rotor magnet and let the stator magnet roll. Mark this until the stator magent has enough velocity to pass the rotor magnet.

I believe this last example will get my point across. Now this does not answer what is going on with the Whipmag.

Can you think up and show were a rolling magnet interacting with one at the base or close to the base of the incline cause the roller to speed up? Think size, velocity (inertia) friction so the roller polarity can be controlled. You might even want to make the non rolling magnet movable.

hec you might even want to make the roller set up to were the rolling magnet goes in the other direction.

Ahh some toys I need to build to play with. LOL

Hmm why is it I always end up back at an inclined plane with such devices?
Might want to take a look at that guys perpetual mobile also.
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Sat May 10, 2008 9:11 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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@lostcauses,

If you look at curve for negative torque you can see how coming out of zero torque the negative torque is is insufficient to overcome the momentum of the stator. Once the field is prevented from connecting it takes a strong flux to overcome the shear. This means the AGW (co-rotation) has a propensity to cause the negative torque portion of the cycle to be disengaged. However, notice the bottom of the curve gets pretty strong and its possible that some negative torque occurs right at the end of that curve - if so, (it would be microseconds) this could delay the stator just enough as it hits the positive torque, to increase the positive torque duration. So far, all of the strobes, Al's and mine do not indicate this is happening. Instead, any negative torque seems to apply syncronously to both rotor and stator. If the negative torque is sheared entirely and the positve torque is sufficient to overcome drag, you will have acceleration. The rotor and stator will accelerate until the momentum matches the positive torque. Theoretically, if Al was able to sync all three stators in AGW the speed would increase even more.
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Sat May 10, 2008 9:55 am PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@Harvey

It occurs to me that the approaching rotor field also affects the dark side of the stator and maybe the Magnus affect could be contributing towards AGW. Rolling Eyes
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Sat May 10, 2008 5:02 pm PostPost subject:
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Harvey wrote:
korkskrew wrote:
overconfident wrote:
Even better, I'd like to see some real torque measurements from one of the sustained AGW whipmag runs (Al, can you do this?).

Ah, there's the rub. If anyone could devise an experiment method that could map the actual torque curve, I'm sure Al would be all over it in a heart beat. The results of that experiment would answer many questions (and I'm sure would lead to many others).


Accelerometers?

Laser interferometry?

Both?

The problem with these is that they measure position, speed or changes thereof. Those things are a function of torque, friction, drag, etc acting on the mass or MoI. Without being able to separate the contribution of each force it wouldn't really tell you much about the torque.
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Sat May 10, 2008 11:32 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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MADPROF wrote:
@Harvey

It occurs to me that the approaching rotor field also affects the dark side of the stator and maybe the Magnus affect could be contributing towards AGW. Rolling Eyes


Worth looking at to be sure. The rotor is a single blade tesla pump (reverse tesla turbine) air is drawn into the center and spiralled out past the stator - so that is your velocity. There is no force vector involved, but momentum is carrying the rotation. can there be any contribution?

Let me know what you come up with Wink
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Sat May 10, 2008 11:39 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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Harvey wrote:

Worth looking at to be sure. The rotor is a single blade tesla pump (reverse tesla turbine) air is drawn into the center and spiralled out past the stator - so that is your velocity. There is no force vector involved, but momentum is carrying the rotation. can there be any contribution?

Let me know what you come up with



I was just thinking out loud Wink Magnetic wind, All this stuff goes straight over my head. If there is a conection , I would be the last to find it. Laughing
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Sun May 11, 2008 3:58 pm PostPost subject:
Mr.Entropy
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korkskrew wrote:
The problem with these is that they measure position, speed or changes thereof. Those things are a function of torque, friction, drag, etc acting on the mass or MoI. Without being able to separate the contribution of each force it wouldn't really tell you much about the torque.

True, but the non-magnetic forces are constant AFAICT and, therefore, a lot easier to measure in isolation. First, run the system (Al's working system!) on a turntable to see if there's any overall external torque applied. Then, take out the stator magnets, drive the parts to speed with DC motors, and convert current or voltage to torque to get the residual constant torques.
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Sun May 11, 2008 5:36 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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I see that some of you are getting more interested in the static electricity phenomena. So I put a couple of video files on mediafire.com that may be of interest.
The Bonetti machine is totally non-contact, except for the initial start charge that I impart with my fingers. There are no parts that make any kind of frictional or sliding contact, all charges are split and amplified by electrostatic induction. The machine was reaching probably 200 kV during this demo. I have seen it go to 350 kV on a cold dry day.
The Dirod shows just how efficiently mechanical input may be converted to electrical energy, stored, transferred, and re-converted back to mechanical output. This is a contact machine, although the charges are separated and intensified by electrostatic induction, they are transferred to the pickup plates by carbon-fiber brushes. These are also used in the neutral structure.
You will need to be able to view .amv videos (an mp4 format.) Sorry, I couldn't find the original .avi files.

(bonetti file)(Edited: this file seems to have been corrupted. Sorry...)
(dirod file)http://www.mediafire.com/?w2zkjmsmitm
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Sun May 11, 2008 6:23 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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MADPROF wrote:
@Harvey

It occurs to me that the approaching rotor field also affects the dark side of the stator and maybe the Magnus affect could be contributing towards AGW. Rolling Eyes

Interesting point that about the Magnus Effect(note spelling).

I see from the Wiki article that there is such a thing as a Reverse Magnus Effect as well.
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Sun May 11, 2008 6:37 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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alsetalokin

LOL This should get some more ideas going for your whipmag.

What would be you assessment of the whipmag?

For folks really trying to understand the Whipmag and have a replication try this.
1: remove all but one magnet from you rotor. Use only one stator magnet.
2: Move the rotor holding the stator so it attracts the magnet on the rotor.
3: Let them go observing how far both rotor and stator move. If this is set up properly it should cause one or depending on friction and mass both to move. One or both will go past the normal line of strongest force lock. If it is set up properly.

Simply put if magnetic filed will put a torque on both the rotor and stator. The inertia due to mass will cause the rotor stator to pass the lock point. Properly set up one can even get the stator magnet to slip to the other side of the rotor magnet. Note the direction of the movement of rotor and stator. AGW. Note the window of were this can work. So if you have gone so far as to move the stator magnet to optimal position for this effect it will be a lot different than on the set up for the whip mag. It should also show folks what is needed to replicate effects of the whip mag. It will also show you were mass and friction plays a role in this. It will even show you windows were this works.

Best non magnetic example is a pendulum.

This is the AGW effect. It is also the reason folks are having replicating your second effect. Unless the rotor stator interaction are in the proper force to motion relation the speed up can not happen.

This is also the reason the Whipmag so far can only work up to a specific rpm. At some speed it is such the force applied by the magnetic fields will not cause enough motion change to add to the timing so that it can speed up. It drops out of the sync window for such.

No fancy ideas of why it can work just the basics. Just an inertial adding device.

How close am I to your assessment of the whipmag am I AL?

If some one asked me about the whipmag and practical possible uses to make money with I would tell them the above as well as it could be used as a toy and or a device to assist a drive on a small load at specific RMP applications to load.

Depending on who I was being asked by some one (And I have had to do such for stuff in the past and most likly will in times to come.) I would say as scientific if should be understood and the perimeters of such found. To invest to make money from, I would state that it is not well enough understood (or replicated) to even think of it in that manner.
For science only if the person wanting money had the credentials for science yes. for practical application, NO.

What you say to my assessment AL?
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Sun May 11, 2008 11:11 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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I'm not sure what to think about your assessment. I think that the AGW phenomenon might have some esoteric application beyond "toys".
I also think that cloud camper should try the following: use one computer-controlled stator. Define a "neutral" angular position of this stator that results in the N-S pole boundary pointing right at the center of the rotor. Now have the computer rock the stator back and forth about 5 or 10 degrees on either side of this neutral point. If you have the timing right, the rotor should revolve along merrily, and you should be able to reach quite high rpm in this manner, if you have some means of triggering the rocking from the rotor position.
Just doing this manually, I can get the rotor to turn well and continuously, with only a couple degrees of stator rocking.

It seems that mediafire corrupted the Bonetti video, I'll try to upload it again sometime soon.

By the way, the "stealth demo" at the Hot Box Cafe was a resounding success. I got there a little late, and the weather was cool and damp, but everything went as expected: No one showed up, and the device didn't work.
Mr. Green
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Sun May 11, 2008 11:50 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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alsetalokin wrote:

By the way, the "stealth demo" at the Hot Box Cafe was a resounding success. I got there a little late, and the weather was cool and damp, but everything went as expected: No one showed up, and the device didn't work.


I wouldn't say no one showed up...at least one person was there. Mr. Green
htp://www.roachorama.com/home.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7AfWkCfv5A

In the Bonetti video you say "Somthing is not right" and then the video Arrow cuts away to that other cool stuff Neutral I suppose that could be reassembled but I don't know if its worth the effort. Did the device in the Bonetti work?

(It was probably wise to leave the good bearings in the 'hiding place' anyway)

Cheers,
Cool


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Sun May 11, 2008 11:54 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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alsetalokin wrote:
By the way, the "stealth demo" at the Hot Box Cafe was a resounding success. I got there a little late, and the weather was cool and damp, but everything went as expected: No one showed up, and the device didn't work.
Mr. Green


I was there early, but got tired of waiting. Sorry I missed you. Crying or Very sad
ETA: (just kidding)


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Mon May 12, 2008 12:17 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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I had no idea! My my what an interesting place! Wink
They don't allow photography generally but I was able to sneak this shot. Not very revealing I'm afraid:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn101/Tinsel_Koala/hotbox.jpg

The Bonetti does work later in the video, makes some big sparks, I show the function of the neutral structure and re-start the charging several times.
I'll try to upload it again, maybe it will work this time.
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Mon May 12, 2008 12:37 am PostPost subject:
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OK, here's a new url for the Bonetti video.
http://www.mediafire.com/?96wgt2u4cd5
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Mon May 12, 2008 1:03 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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"I think that the AGW phenomenon might have some esoteric application beyond "toys"."

Not so far! When it is replicated by others than you; and more is known then maybe.
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Mon May 12, 2008 1:11 am PostPost subject:
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Almost everybody who has tried has replicated the AGW phenomenon, and it has even been modeled in software.
It possibly could find use in a "reactionless" drive for zero-gee power tools, for example.
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Mon May 12, 2008 1:24 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Ah static machines are fun. I own a Wimshurst version. Fun to mess with the sparking for the kids as well as their hair. It also works well for a single pulse high voltage hit.
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Mon May 12, 2008 1:49 am PostPost subject:
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@Al, that Dirod is an interesting device. Is that the same one that kicked you out of frame before? The discharge spark tells me the load was not able to handle the buildup.

I have to laugh regarding SE. My wife shops at Costco. The store she frequents has some type of rubber or PVC or something for wheels on its carts. The floors are sealed concrete - nothing else. If I push the cart (leather soles), no SE. If she pushes the cart, even 20 feet, several thousands volts are there. I've seen sparks jump over 1cm. Drives her nuts. (I havn't told her to change her shoes yet). Laughing

To utilize SE effectively it needs to be confined. Allowing it to disperse in free air reduces its efficiency. Strong charges separated by a proper dielectric can provide propulsion but you always risk migration across the dielectric. Consider the 15KV Anode of a CRT and the near vacuum inside. The electrons 'migrate' accross the void (and gases) with relative ease. In order to prevent this type of migration, the dielectric must appear opaque to the charge frequency. Shocked (what is this boy talking about Exclamation Confused electrons don't have frequencies, do they Question ) Yes, they do - this is why they exibit interference patterns in a double slit experiment just like photons do. In fact, the two are indestinquishable from the other in certain tests. When it comes to charges there are two basic frequencies involved, the particle frequency (color of the particle itself) and the charge frequency (plate voltage fluctuations). To maximize the EMF the charges need to be focused and isolated. Furthermore the force vectors need to oriented for maximum effect. Consider the following:

Two Highly charged surfaces with like charges in close proximity (repulsive) separated by a charge window Question - a material that is transparent or opaque to a specific charge depending on its mode. (For visualization imagine an LCD plate as the window and visible light as a charge) Its important to realize here that we do not interact with the charges themselves, we only allow or disallow them to interact with each other. We would now have a means to put a static charge to a motive force. With a little imagination you could take this from linear to rotational (without a crankshaft). And then blah the thingy widget to factor I figure no one will read this far into the text so I can imbed anything here and it will be missed entirely. So for every electric field there must be a magnetic field and the only thing that changes is time according to the theory of relativity. Are the particles moving? Relative to what? the earth, the moon the sun the nucleus? What is static? And so for those that skipped to the end and only read the last sentance, that was it.

Cheers,

Shocked
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Mon May 12, 2008 2:37 am PostPost subject:
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Here is that "accidentally released" part of the video above - the part of great significance which "they" didn't want anyone to see - unmangled. Enjoy.
Whipmag-whatever-20080511-REPACK.avi (3.7 MB)

Edit: This release has been nuked, see below.


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Mon May 12, 2008 2:41 am PostPost subject:
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Uh huh, yes, I see, uh huh...
movement, charge, which aspect of the EM field one feels, each is relative. To the others. The whole mishmash is an aspect of a deeper armatureupon which the strings of reality are wound.

"As a thing is viewed, so it appears."

As long as I am in free fall, there is no such thing as gravity.

(extend analogy to EM...)
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Mon May 12, 2008 2:46 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Yirkha wrote:
Here is that "accidentally released" part of the video above - the part of great significance which "they" didn't want anyone to see - unmangled. Enjoy.
Whipmag-whatever-20080511-REPACK.avi (3.7 MB)


WTF??? Where in tarnation did you get that???
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Mon May 12, 2008 2:55 am PostPost subject:
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Oh yes, Grant's prayers had finally helped and the secret last missing piece of information slipped out hidden in random junk in a corrupted video. You can't conceal the Truth now, Mr. Nicolabackwards!
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Mon May 12, 2008 2:58 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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alsetalokin wrote:
Yirkha wrote:
Here is that "accidentally released" part of the video above - the part of great significance which "they" didn't want anyone to see - unmangled. Enjoy.
Whipmag-whatever-20080511-REPACK.avi (3.7 MB)


WTF??? Where in tarnation did you get that???


LOL, nice Yirkha, now I have to brighten up those readings a bit...

(I think he reassembled the shifted images from the latter part of the other video...but what is tha white box in the bottom right?)
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Mon May 12, 2008 3:02 am PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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I did say the scientific aspect of it is good, and should be studied. Replicators have been doing a good job of this. Until it can be reproduced easily and constantly, it is just a toy.
Hey it is a device that does get my attention. Most do not.

How long did it take for a wire spinning in a magnetic field become usable?

LOL at the zero g thing. I wounder how many folks have claimed their device would work in such. Nasa does get request to put such thing into space to prove it will work. Needle to say it don't happen.

If reproduction of the second effect can be done, then it will be such that application's can be found. So far just the AGW and one claim of drop out of AG to AGW of rotor increasing speed.

As per your post on the mad email, a lot of folks have put time into this item. Got to love how the internet works eh! Still no claims of the second effect you showed in the video ecept the drop out Gw to agw causing the stator to speed up1 Oh well time does tell. I would not be here if I did not see were this could be done.

Your post on how short the degrees variation of stator are to get rotor spin (in proper location) is interesting.Shows just how much folks take to a posting on the internet.

I really hate to build with out seeing a way to make it work before building. LOL
It may be such I have to.

Lets see so far I would have to go with
1: a rotor that is adjustable to distance from center for magnets. Proper length from center to stator field. The gap between magnets due to strength can have an effect on how the inertia of stator will allow it to travel a well as force interactions on both.

2: a fairly good sized assortment of both stator magnets as well as bearings.
So far the only way I can see to adjust friction is the bearing and offset of stator to center of rotor magnet. Still thinking of other possibility's.

3: Some way to adjust the mass on both stator and rotor. It may be the parts and such so far show AGW sync can be done, but it may be as simple as mass to why they are not speeding up as Al"s does. (I suppect it is done with friction more than mass in Al.s application).

4:The dampeners. I am not sure were to begin on these. Size and effect are they put friction on the stator in Al,s lay out. By distnce and placmet some on the stator!
Lol it may be the counter force due to the magnetic induction is what is doing the friction switching I am looking at. (counter magnetic field). The interaction of stator and rotor on these to visualize is not easy. The currents generated in these and interacting due to moving magnetic fields is a bit perplexing. It is such that they appear to be in the original holes for the stator magnets. Size and height of these would and could play a roll in the second effect. This is also such as the strengths of them stator magnets to size will play a role in this.
Ayy it could be, it might not be. LOL. It would still depend on the bearings.


Enough for now. LOL
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Mon May 12, 2008 3:05 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 640
Location: Sol III

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Gahh! That's definitely not supposed to have gotten out. Out of self defense I need to provide a timeline, I guess.
First thing to note is that the video is upside-down, and in the original it is actually possible to read the tach. This seems to be a short segment near the end of the original.
The present clip starts with the unit running, 1 AGW and 2 GW stators. At 0:02 I stop the GW stators and it is evident that the unit speeds up and maintains a steady speed until about 0:38 when I stop the AGW stator (out of this frame but visible in the original). Then the unit coasts to a stop.

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Last edited by alsetalokin on Mon May 12, 2008 3:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mon May 12, 2008 3:10 am PostPost subject:
Yirkha
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Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 32

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Harvey wrote:
But what is that white box in the bottom right?
The original is 128 x 128, i.e. 8 x 8 = 64 macroblocks, but the result is 176 x 96, i.e. 11 x 6 = 66 blocks - those two pieces are simply missing.
But all of that was useless anyway - I'm actually ashamed that this didn't cross my mind earlier: just change the byte at offset 0x0040 from 0x80 to 0xB0 and it will show up in full original resolution...

Edit:
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Whipmag-whatever-20080511-REPACK-HIRES-PROPER.avi
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