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Munchausen's Replica

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Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:07 am PostPost subject: Here it is
munchausen
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This is just a rough draft project to see if MDF was a suitable material for use. At this point I would say yes. My next replica will be better.

I will comment on what I learned later.

I uploaded more photos but I haven't posted them yet.
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Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:23 pm PostPost subject: Re: Here it is
bano
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munchausen wrote:


This is just a rough draft project to see if MDF was a suitable material for use. At this point I would say yes. My next replica will be better.

I will comment on what I learned later.

I uploaded more photos but I haven't posted them yet.

Thank You I will wait al next from You and ewery another Wery nice design.Brawo!
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Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:09 am PostPost subject: What I learned . . .
munchausen
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I've had a good amount of time to play around with my replication

The MDF seems pretty easy to machine and I think it has decent properties for this application . . . I think.

I had a hard time achieving AGW sync until I lifted the stator magnets above the rotor (the rotor is thick, I'll post more pics later). And I can't get AGW to work at high speeds. I don't think I am spinning that rotor by hand faster than 1000 rpm, and I can't get AGW sync until it is half as fast as my first spin. Once I get AGW, I try to spin it up to speed again but it drops out.

The screws I am using for the stators are too small and are putting too much play into the system. so I am going to use some larger ones I bought.

I am using the 9/16" magnets for now.

Next step is to make another rotor with a little more precision.

Unfortunately, I think my drill press needs alignment. I will have to experiment with different methods to get a hole drilled exactly where I want it.

More later.
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Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:06 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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You may try sleeving your screws with heat shrink tubing also - this will help center the bearing race around the screw.



Cool
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Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:56 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Nice to see some more creative construction. Now if someone would just do an 18" rotor, 13 stators, latches, and pivots ...
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Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:28 am PostPost subject:
munchausen
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I was working on a larger rotor tonight and discovered some bad news . . .

I was cutting some channels in this MDF when a piece broke off and shot across the room. It's a good material in large chunks but once you start shaving layers off, it loses some integrity. Good for shelving, bad for whipmag.

I am going to try a couple more things but I'm thinking my best bet from here on out is the whipmag II.

It's a real shame because I have a bunch of this MDF. I was planning on making a bunch of rotors, which as far as I can tell, is the last variable we need to try. Since we can't be sure about Al's rotor magnets, we probably can't be dogmatic about rotor size . . .

more later.
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Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:55 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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munchausen
I understand your frustration.

Looking at what I was thinking before I have decided this is not real as we were shown, It would need a variable rotor, so the length between the rotor magnets could be adjusted. I was thinking some sort of slide arrangement.
Take a base rotor with slots cut to center so the magnet holders (Pie shaped) could be slid out , or in to make such adjustments.
The next problem is the diameter of the stators to swing of rotation. Such again would be a variable to the situation.

Yet when applied logic is done, the idea this is self running become very questionable. Short of an unverified replication suggestion. So that is even a void.

The logic of any system such as this is, do you get any rundown time with magnet operating as shown that out do the base line rundown times with out them??

So far I have yet to hear of such. Strangely my best run down times were two stators, LOCKED into position. go look at the pendulum thread for the why.

This would put me with in a few units of my rundown times with out magnets. Yet still a loss.

When examined as was done with the Mylow motor, the trash can video shows a problem with this device. It has what appears as a string on the table in the video. which is a good sign for faked. No replication of the effect that is valid is also a reality.

It would be nice to say real. It would be nice to say everything said was true. Yet evidence and logic say it is not so. it had to have an external energy input.

The whip mag2 is not going to do you much better.

Unless some on can counter my argument. This is a futile attempt to continue.

I will get flack for this, yet it is true. Some one would have to show me were I am wrong.

Yet what I have learned for this, is far better to have tried, than not. A lot of knowledge gained. A lesson learned, don't believe every thing you are told, and question what you are shown, especially when the lighting is bad.
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Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:19 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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lostcauses wrote:

The whip mag2 is not going to do you much better.

Unless some on can counter my argument. This is a futile attempt to continue.

I will get flack for this, yet it is true. Some one would have to show me were I am wrong.


No flack here, at least WRT WhipMag II. Even if that demonstrated acceleration is real, I'm now convinced we won't see it without some more assistance from Al.

I have moved on, it's still WhipMag, but I'm going for the whole enchilada I originally specified, same magnets, 18" rotor, 13 stators, pivoting rotor magnets, stator latching mechanism.

IOW, I'm going to attempt my original design. I'm not going to push any of you on this, but if you are interested in participating, I'd love some company. Harvey has shown some interest and posted some designs, but neither he nor I has much time for it at the moment.

As with most collaborations of this type, Harvey and I have some differences (minor so far). So my design will be a bit different from his. I don't see a problem with that at the moment. There's no reference device known to work, so anyone is just as likely to succeed or fail.

I have to see this through, even if it takes years. I won't be able to sleep otherwise.

OC
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Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:07 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Oc that is the correct way to go it seems.
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Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:55 pm PostPost subject:
bano
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[quote="overconfident"]
lostcauses wrote:



I have to see this through, even if it takes years. I won't be able to sleep otherwise.

OC


OC Please do not worry Al will come ! and I would be like Alsetolackin to come here again!
Please do not worry the healtlh is most imprtant in this world in this life....
what is your idea? I would be known it....
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Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:04 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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bano wrote:
what is your idea? I would be known it....


It's in the "WhipMag 3" thread, and I have discussed it many times before in other threads.
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Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:10 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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I think Al lost his password settings and didn't have the desire to track them down so it seemed a good time for abandonment.

One of the good things that has come out of this is that we have assembled here some of the sharpest minds on this planet that believe energy can be extracted from a magnetic field. That is more than half the battle, because you have to believe it is possible to succeed. If you don't believe it is possible, then you have failed before you begin.

Once the belief exists that it is possible, then the mind is free to work out the necessary bits to make that happen. Most of that process is elimination. As an over simplified example, we know that if we want a repulsive force that we must eliminate opposite poles from facing each other and vice versa. We know that if the friction and drag of the system exceeds the torque provided by the magnets, that those magnets must be replaced with something better. We know that if we bring an affected object back to its starting point in a conservative field that the energy exchange between that field and the affected object will net to zero regardless of the path taken.

Of all the things I have experienced with this system, the one thing that stands out the most is that a magnetic field is not conservative when it itself is in a transitory state. This is why the pendulum defies the norm, because its velocity is never constant, nor are the field interactions of any of the conservative fields that are in play. This process is also demonstrated in my solenoid driven stator where the fields shear on recoil and engage on actuation. According to modern field theory, this should not be possible. Most investigators of this phenomenon will explain it away by saying we are pushing against the hill and recoiling in the valley of the magnetic potential. This is only partially true.

With a little bit of thoughtfulness and understanding we can eliminate the impossible and zero in on the probable. A 144 mile rotor is impossible (at least for experimenters like us) as is a 144 micron rotor. So there are set limitations on size often dictated by the machines we use to fabricate them. We also turn our attention to the mass and inertia of the system and evaluate the forces present in our magnetic fields available to move those masses and overcome that inertia. These too have their limits that dictate certain unchangeable values.

When we hit a 'wall' that needs overcome, we address it and work around it if necessary. Always asking if there is another way to look at this or approach it.

One of the failings I have witnessed and participated in, is the acceptance that something has occurred (or not) based on small or single samples of data. In other words, we cannot take two magnets and assume that all magnets in the world behave as these two. Likewise, we cannot take 5 WhiPMag II apparatuses and assume that all devices constructed similarly will react the same. The sample set is much too small to be qualitative from a scientific approach. This is probably why Steorn has selected 300 to improve the statistical analysis. It is a double edged sword - while it extends hope that our samples just didn't measure up, it also slays the single only working model on the planet, simply because if it cannot be reproduced it is worthless to an energy hungry planet.

I rarely put my hands to anything that I am not already confident will show a confirmed decisive result, for or against. And until I fully comprehend what is supposed to happen and when with the latching and pivoting, I probably will not begin construction. It has to make sense to me first.

After all is said and done, we will probably discover that the magnetic field is a special warp of Space-time and hence our models and equations for time and distance breakdown inside the field. This is probably why the changing period of the change in acceleration (known as the second derivative of acceleration or fourth derivative of position) seems to be closely linked with energy exchange phenomenon in magnetic fields.

Remember, not all fields are shaped the same and entering and exiting is not always symmetrical.

Cool
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:23 am PostPost subject:
munchausen
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New Version:





I am getting quite a bit o bearing noise and nowhere near the spindown times that al is getting.
alsetalokin wrote:
With rotor removed so the stator is free to spin freely, when I give it the thumb-flip technique, it spins for around 5 seconds. This is just an estimate, not an instrumental measurement. But for sure it is waaay longer than 1 second.

I have used light penetrating oil to clean the bearings out but I imagine with the bearing noise, stamina is not my biggest problem.

Any better source for small bearings besides BOCA?

I have some hdd drive head double bearings but I they are attached to a shaft with a screw that is only a few mm long. I don't have a lot of slack in that area. I may look into though.

Any other thoughts?

Is al coming back?
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:41 am PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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munchausen
Try graphite in your bearings. Clean them of grease and oil then dry. Apply grahite powder to the bearing and work it in a couple times and blow out any left over.

Check my vid on results. They seem noisy but spin much better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSTfFIetYPY

Magluvin
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Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:11 am PostPost subject:
bano
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Magluvin wrote:
munchausen
Try graphite in your bearings. Clean them of grease and oil then dry. Apply grahite powder to the bearing and work it in a couple times and blow out any left over.

Check my vid on results. They seem noisy but spin much better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSTfFIetYPY

Magluvin


@MagliwinI saw on the vid You hawe two or three bearings one of them is with 8 balls another is with 9 balls
I suggest to You to try to open the sepparator and remov 6 balls from the bearing with 9 balls other wise You can remove 4 balls from the bearing with 8 balls .Then You put a separator again.
and You will have a bearing with onli 3 or 4 balls.
I suppose that will increase one more the free spinning of the bearing.
If You hawe remmeber @Harwey sad which his bearings in his Whipmag have not any grease even a n graphite and this was good for its device.
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Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:08 am PostPost subject:
munchausen
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played with the replica even more tonight. Definitely need to look at the graphite stuff.

The other problem is the bearing chatter. With nylon sleeves, I just don't know how balanced my stators will be, which will be a huge problem when the stators are going 4000rpm.

more later.
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Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:28 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Hi Munch,

The one thing missing from above is how to 'work' them. I used a rubber wheel in my dremel tool and a bannana plug from an old meter lead. The bearings fit snug on the plug which gave me something to hold it with, and then I spun the outer race with the rubber wheel. About 10 minutes and 3 applications of graphite and things started running much smoother. Be sure to blow out all the excess graphite with compressed air. I think Mags also used acetone on his IIRC.

Cheers,

Cool
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