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Al, last chance to come clean, or else . . .

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Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:45 am PostPost subject: Al, last chance to come clean, or else . . .
munchausen
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alsetalokin, I've always stuck up for you in the past but I really need you to be honest with me. Circumstances have changed: I just ordered some magnets for my very own replica.

So if you've been holding back any valuable information from us, now is the time to spill the beans.

Sure a few bucks in magnets may not seem like much compared the the hours some other guys have already put into this, but I had to convince my wife to part with our money. And if this turns out to be a huge waste, she's going to make me sell one of my toys (probably my RC helicopter).

I ordered it all from KJ
10 834DIA n42 stator magnets
10 1/4x9/16 n35 rotor magnets
10 1/4x1/2 n42 rotor magnets
and some cool magnetic viewing film

I couldn't find the exact rotor magnets so I think I'll have to make my rotor a little larger to compensate. But I'm getting ahead of myself. I don't have access to any of the cool plastics and I will have a hard time fabricating with my limited experience. So I'm hoping you guys can help me out.

So . . . MADPROF, what is the going rate for a good rotor to tinker with? I sent you a PM.

Anyone want to sell me their replica?
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Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:37 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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I can tell by your post that you have, or will shortly have, all the parts and knowledge necessary to reproduce exactly what was demonstrated in the first video.
You might have to throw in one or two parts that you probably have lying around your workbench, but I'm sure you'll be able to do it, with the items you mention and the knowledge required to use them.
But please don't blame me if this "turns out to be a huge waste." Just what are you trying to do? Build a permanent magnet perpetual motion machine? We already know that those are impossible, and in any case, the "whipmag" isn't one.
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Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:23 pm PostPost subject:
munchausen
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alsetalokin wrote:
I can tell by your post that you have, or will shortly have, all the parts and knowledge necessary to reproduce exactly what was demonstrated in the first video.

That would be great. If I could see witness the elusive effect first-hand I would consider that a huge success. You would describe it as an effect right?

If I could help someone else witness the effect, I would consider that success as well, albeit significantly less huge. However, I openly admit my inferiority when it comes to physics and magnetic theory, so I don't expect to be much help.

alsetalokin wrote:
Just what are you trying to do? Build a permanent magnet perpetual motion machine? We already know that those are impossible, and in any case, the "whipmag" isn't one.

Of course not, I'm just trying to build another 'working' whipmag (have we decided if the whipmag performs 'work'?). But don't back me into a corner to redefine my efforts (e.g. an 'alsetalokin effect' receiver/generator).

P.S. If we find out that your magnets are actually composed of some radioactive material, and the alsetalokin effect can only be witnessed when the whipmag is spewing radiation, that would be a huge waste.
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Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:39 pm PostPost subject:
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alsetalokin wrote:
Just what are you trying to do? Build a permanent magnet perpetual motion machine? We already know that those are impossible, and in any case, the "whipmag" isn't one.

Others may correct me if I'm wrong here, but most if not all of the people building replications are trying to reproduce the "anomaly" or "effect" as you called it, for the purpose of studying it and performing experiments to try and find the source of the impelling force behind it. I think some believe that the force is external, some believe that the force is internal, and a few may believe that it is perpetual or bogus (a clever trick).

I believe the majority are skeptics that would love the opportunity to study the anomaly just to understand something new. I think you misunderstand the motivations of most of the replicators and judge them incorrectly. We would be perfectly happy knowing that it isn't a PMM, if only we could understand the source of that seemingly impossible behavior.

I'm pretty sure none of us are buying a reduction in friction as the source of the acceleration. We are all pretty clear that reducing the friction is only going to make it decelerate at a lesser rate and cannot explain acceleration in the absence of an impelling force. That force is the thing that interests (edit: and eludes) the replicators.
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Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:29 pm PostPost subject:
billgates
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alsetalokin wrote:
Just what are you trying to do? Build a permanent magnet perpetual motion machine? We already know that those are impossible, and in any case, the "whipmag" isn't one.


@Al
If we suppose there's no hidden machinery in your first video, and that your motor ran for 7 hours with no wear of magnets, you can agree with me that it is difficult to find explanations other than you probably have a free energy device. Confused

How can you state that the whipmag isn't one?

You tell this because:
1. physics asserts it (and you deeply believe in its laws ), or
2. you know or discovered the exact source of energy?

Thanks Cool
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Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:47 pm PostPost subject:
buggyirk
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[quote="billgates
How can you state that the whipmag isn't one?

[/quote]

AL wasn't expecting to discover what he did when he did it. He was accually expecting someone else to be able to duplicate his results. The mear fact that noone has duplicated it, would make anyone a little shy when it comes to saying "I have created perpetual motion!" In my eyes he is playing the safe card until someone can duplicate it. In his eyes, he has given people everything they need to duplicate what he did. I think he has been very gracious in giving us as much as he has. What does making him admit he has free energy do anyway? He still doesn't want to send his magnets to anyone. Wink
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Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:31 pm PostPost subject:
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Ok, but he should say "I really don't know if this is free energy". Instead he boldly states that it isn't.
So my conclusion is that he knows something we don't (the energy source) or that he firmly believes in physics laws. Confused
Let's wait for an answer from him...
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Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:17 pm PostPost subject:
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Just trying to help.
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Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:04 pm PostPost subject:
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"I can tell by your post that you have, or will shortly have, all the parts and knowledge necessary to reproduce exactly what was demonstrated in the first video."

Including the RC Helicopter?
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Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:47 am PostPost subject: Re: Al, last chance to come clean, or else . . .
Yadaraf
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munchausen wrote:
alsetalokin, I've always stuck up for you in the past but I really need you to be honest with me. Circumstances have changed: I just ordered some magnets for my very own replica.

So if you've been holding back any valuable information from us, now is the time to spill the beans.

Sure a few bucks in magnets may not seem like much compared the the hours some other guys have already put into this, but I had to convince my wife to part with our money. And if this turns out to be a huge waste, she's going to make me sell one of my toys (probably my RC helicopter).

I ordered it all from KJ
10 834DIA n42 stator magnets
10 1/4x9/16 n35 rotor magnets
10 1/4x1/2 n42 rotor magnets
and some cool magnetic viewing film

I couldn't find the exact rotor magnets so I think I'll have to make my rotor a little larger to compensate. But I'm getting ahead of myself. I don't have access to any of the cool plastics and I will have a hard time fabricating with my limited experience. So I'm hoping you guys can help me out.

So . . . MADPROF, what is the going rate for a good rotor to tinker with? I sent you a PM.

Anyone want to sell me their replica?

@munchausen,

I think you're aware that Al used a proprietary shock-mounted spindle, so buliding an exact replica will be very difficult. Let us know if you find a similar spindle.

Also, Al cherry-picked the stator magnets, and they might not have been from the same vendor. In fact, many replicators have failed to produce Al's effect, and one reason for this might be that they relied on the same vendor. You might mix it up.

Lastly, if you have to choose between the Whipmag, I hope that you choose family. Cool

Cheers Smile
Yada...
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Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:18 am PostPost subject:
munchausen
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billgates wrote:
So my conclusion is that he knows something we don't (the energy source) or that he firmly believes in physics laws. Confused
Let's wait for an answer from him...

He has answered this question a few times. He believes in the laws of physics.

loreman wrote:
"I can tell by your post that you have, or will shortly have, all the parts and knowledge necessary to reproduce exactly what was demonstrated in the first video."

Including the RC Helicopter?

Bingo. The big break we've all been waiting for. Smile

Yadaraf wrote:
I think you're aware that Al used a proprietary shock-mounted spindle, so buliding an exact replica will be very difficult. Let us know if you find a similar spindle.

I will keep my eyes open for the reel to reel deck, waiting outside local TV station for their big upgrade to nonlinier. I won't be actively searching for one but once you guys figure it out, I will buy one from you. Deal? And if I get a working whipmag, I'll sell you one.

Yadaraf wrote:
Also, Al cherry-picked the stator magnets, and they might not have been from the same vendor. In fact, many replicators have failed to produce Al's effect, and one reason for this might be that they relied on the same vendor. You might mix it up.

Cherry picked? I thought they were all from kj, some were bad and 3 were good? I may follow that advice in the not-too-distant future.

Yadaraf wrote:
Lastly, if you have to choose between the Whipmag, I hope that you choose family. Cool

I agree, and I'm hoping that the whipmag and my family can coexist. I think if I got it running, my wife would say, 'great, so when are you going to fix . . .' Rolling Eyes
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Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:56 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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billgates wrote:
alsetalokin wrote:
Just what are you trying to do? Build a permanent magnet perpetual motion machine? We already know that those are impossible, and in any case, the "whipmag" isn't one.


@Al
If we suppose there's no hidden machinery in your first video, and that your motor ran for 7 hours with no wear of magnets, you can agree with me that it is difficult to find explanations other than you probably have a free energy device. Confused

How can you state that the whipmag isn't one?

You tell this because:
1. physics asserts it (and you deeply believe in its laws ), or
2. you know or discovered the exact source of energy?

Thanks Cool


Seem to me an inductive sink (like the rumored farmer used to steal from Edison) would fit your description there and not be an FE source. Well...ok it might seem 'Free' to steal from Edison but the court costs would offset the 'free' nature of it. Very Happy

Seriously though, Running Bare already showed sustained AGW operation powered by an external pulse motor. It fits your description but fails as FE or OU. Wink
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Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:21 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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loreman wrote:
"I can tell by your post that you have, or will shortly have, all the parts and knowledge necessary to reproduce exactly what was demonstrated in the first video."

Including the RC Helicopter?


Trust a lawyer to cut right to the chase...
Does anyone remember my photo, "Free Energy Penguin", dedicated to Paul Lowrance?

(The stator mags are all K&J r834dia, as specified. The rotor mags are generic but all from one (unknown) source.)
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Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:10 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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alsetalokin wrote:

...

(The stator mags are all K&J r834dia, as specified. The rotor mags are generic but all from one (unknown) source.)


K&J likely receives magnets from different sources, thus quality might vary throughout the year(s) -- depending on lowest bidder, etc. This is why "cherry-picking" for strength, magnetic symmetry, etc. is necessary, albeit not yet sufficiently characterized.

Cheers Smile
Yada..
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Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:55 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Yadaraf wrote:
alsetalokin wrote:

...

(The stator mags are all K&J r834dia, as specified. The rotor mags are generic but all from one (unknown) source.)


K&J likely receives magnets from different sources, thus quality might vary throughout the year(s) -- depending on lowest bidder, etc. This is why "cherry-picking" for strength, magnetic symmetry, etc. is necessary, albeit not yet sufficiently characterized.

Cheers Smile
Yada..


I had the same thought. The most I can say is I got them all at the same time (15 of them) and I can't see any difference looking with the green viewing film.
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Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:03 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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billgates wrote:
alsetalokin wrote:
Just what are you trying to do? Build a permanent magnet perpetual motion machine? We already know that those are impossible, and in any case, the "whipmag" isn't one.


@Al
If we suppose there's no hidden machinery in your first video, and that your motor ran for 7 hours with no wear of magnets, you can agree with me that it is difficult to find explanations other than you probably have a free energy device. Confused

How can you state that the whipmag isn't one?

You tell this because:
1. physics asserts it (and you deeply believe in its laws ), or
2. you know or discovered the exact source of energy?

Thanks Cool


I have to agree, except that XOR at the end should probably be AND/OR.
And if the magnets really contain a bazillion useable Joules like Harvey said, how would I know if they had "worn" or not? I dunno...

What the FLMP is up with your avatar? It looks like a bad dream I once had...
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Thu May 01, 2008 12:52 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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alsetalokin wrote:
Yadaraf wrote:
alsetalokin wrote:

...

(The stator mags are all K&J r834dia, as specified. The rotor mags are generic but all from one (unknown) source.)


K&J likely receives magnets from different sources, thus quality might vary throughout the year(s) -- depending on lowest bidder, etc. This is why "cherry-picking" for strength, magnetic symmetry, etc. is necessary, albeit not yet sufficiently characterized.

Cheers Smile
Yada..


I had the same thought. The most I can say is I got them all at the same time (15 of them) and I can't see any difference looking with the green viewing film.


Very helpful info. Many thanks.

Obviously, precise stator characteristics are still a mystery. Viewing film is great, but the information it provides is, of course, subjective. I wonder what would provide the least expensive yet most objective metrics in this case. Also, I wonder which parameter is more difficult to control during the manufacturing process -- strength or symmetry.

..Q: Anybody familiar with the QC issues associated with the production of diametrically magnetized ring magnets?

Cheers Smile
Yada..
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Thu May 01, 2008 3:59 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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alsetalokin wrote:
loreman wrote:
"I can tell by your post that you have, or will shortly have, all the parts and knowledge necessary to reproduce exactly what was demonstrated in the first video."

Including the RC Helicopter?


Trust a lawyer to cut right to the chase...
Does anyone remember my photo, "Free Energy Penguin", dedicated to Paul Lowrance?

(The stator mags are all K&J r834dia, as specified. The rotor mags are generic but all from one (unknown) source.)


Yeah, I liked that one - anthropomorphic bioelectric it was Smile
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Thu May 01, 2008 4:02 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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alsetalokin wrote:
billgates wrote:
alsetalokin wrote:
Just what are you trying to do? Build a permanent magnet perpetual motion machine? We already know that those are impossible, and in any case, the "whipmag" isn't one.


@Al
If we suppose there's no hidden machinery in your first video, and that your motor ran for 7 hours with no wear of magnets, you can agree with me that it is difficult to find explanations other than you probably have a free energy device. Confused

How can you state that the whipmag isn't one?

You tell this because:
1. physics asserts it (and you deeply believe in its laws ), or
2. you know or discovered the exact source of energy?

Thanks Cool


I have to agree, except that XOR at the end should probably be AND/OR.
And if the magnets really contain a bazillion useable Joules like Harvey said, how would I know if they had "worn" or not? I dunno...

What the FLMP is up with your avatar? It looks like a bad dream I once had...


HEY! who said anything about 'useable' LOL Very Happy
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Thu May 01, 2008 7:22 pm PostPost subject: What is the Whipmag?
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alsetalokin, your posts (scattered among the threads) beg a question, viz., what is the Matrix?

Wait, I mean, What is the Whipmag?

Let me explain . . .
alsetalokin wrote:
I can tell by your post that you have, or will shortly have, all the parts and knowledge necessary to reproduce exactly what was demonstrated in the first video.

What was demonstrated exactly? Acceleration, right?
alsetalokin wrote:
As I have said before, if you are able to get AGW synch at the appropriate RPM, and your rundown times are in the ballpark showing that you don't have too much bearing friction, your magnets are probably adequate and I will add that your layout is probably good enough.

Good enough for what? A free energy machine? Fergeddaboudit!

I thought CLaNZeR had achieved AGW and then propelled his rotor with air but it never accelerated ‘by itself.’ So was his layout good enough? What do you think it was missing.
alsetalokin wrote:
The "whipmag effect", which admittedly doesn't exist, hasn't been researched enough for anyone (except maybe me) to be quite sure that it doesn't exist.

alsetalokin wrote:
billgates wrote:
How can you state that the whipmag isn't one?

You tell this because:
1. physics asserts it (and you deeply believe in its laws ), or
2. you know or discovered the exact source of energy?

Thanks Cool

I have to agree, except that XOR at the end should probably be AND/OR.

Are you saying that you know and/or have discovered the exact source of energy? Would you please share that information?

alsetalokin wrote:
Does one build an accurate (as far as can be determined) replica and expect it to generate ROUFE (or however it's spelled)? . . . Or does one remain unencumbered by theoretical considerations, and proceed by whatever method to construct a device that does all the same things as the device one is investigating?

This seems backwards to me, not wrong, just backwards. We can probably all make a device that ‘does all the same things’ but it would have strings, cams, motors, wires, etc.

Isn’t it better to build a device similar to the original to see if it behaves as the original?

Are we on the same page or are we a few chapters behind with pages missing from our book.

Let me know.

Also, I'm hoping you can help me build my replica, but I'll start a new thread when the magnets arrive (in 4 days says the PO).
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Thu May 01, 2008 8:21 pm PostPost subject:
Yirkha
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"Al, last chance to come clean, or else . . ."
Else what? This has been puzzling me ever since I was in preschool.
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Thu May 01, 2008 9:48 pm PostPost subject:
munchausen
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Yirkha wrote:
Else what? This has been puzzling me ever since I was in preschool.

Well in this case, I think it's pretty obvious: Al needs to come clean or else . . . I will spend $50.

Technically the money has been sent but I can probably return the magnets for a refund in a certain amount of time.

The phrase that bothers me is: "Well that's good, 'cause I was about to say . . ."

About to say what?
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Thu May 01, 2008 11:06 pm PostPost subject:
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You'll have so much fun with these magnets, you won't want to give them up, even when you get tired of flipping the "whipmag".

I am especially intrigued with OC's idea of letting little diametric magnets float around in recesses in the rotor, with pivoted stators. If only there was some way to have the rolling and rotating rotor magnets roll around in there without contacting the top or bottom of the cavity. This would seem to put centrifugal force (fictitious, of course, how appropriate) into the mix in a maybe useful way.
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Fri May 02, 2008 12:43 am PostPost subject:
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alsetalokin wrote:
You'll have so much fun with these magnets, you won't want to give them up, even when you get tired of flipping the "whipmag".

I am especially intrigued with OC's idea of letting little diametric magnets float around in recesses in the rotor, with pivoted stators. If only there was some way to have the rolling and rotating rotor magnets roll around in there without contacting the top or bottom of the cavity. This would seem to put centrifugal force (fictitious, of course, how appropriate) into the mix in a maybe useful way.


I can think of a few ways:
A small plug of bismuth in the bottom of the hole may do the trick:

Another way would be to craft venturi above and relief hole beneath thus vacuuming them up a bit.

Or a simulated gemtone support properly ground.


Very Happy
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Fri May 02, 2008 2:14 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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alsetalokin wrote:

I am especially intrigued with OC's idea of letting little diametric magnets float around in recesses in the rotor, with pivoted stators. If only there was some way to have the rolling and rotating rotor magnets roll around in there without contacting the top or bottom of the cavity. This would seem to put centrifugal force (fictitious, of course, how appropriate) into the mix in a maybe useful way.


I'm sure it would be even more intriguing if it was properly designed and constructed instead of me just wildly drilling holes in a perfectly good rotor (hint, hint).
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Fri May 02, 2008 1:29 pm PostPost subject:
munchausen
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alsetalokin wrote:
You'll have so much fun with these magnets, you won't want to give them up, even when you get tired of flipping the "whipmag".

I didn't buy the magnets to have fun. I bought them to make a whipmag replica . . . I have other means of having fun, including but not limited to playing video games and possessing an additional $50 Laughing

But since you are concerned with my happiness, I'll let you in on a little secret--I would derive a great deal of pleasure from reading your answers to these questions:

Have you discovered the 'source of energy' of/in/about/with/on/below the whipmag?

Do you know why it accelerates when 'latches' AGW?

Yes, knowing the answers to those questions would be lots of fun, maybe even more fun than flipping the whipmag, if that were possible, ! Idea
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Fri May 02, 2008 1:41 pm PostPost subject:
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I'll second that...HUGE fun!!
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Fri May 02, 2008 2:25 pm PostPost subject:
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@korkskrew et al

I must admit, just out of curiosity, I'm also interested to know the hidden power source of the OCAL MPMM / WhipMag.
There have been loads of hints, but I'm still puzzled.
Engineering games are fun.

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Fri May 02, 2008 11:33 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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LOL, I now think I know who the guys are that would look in the back of the book for the answers Very Happy (Funny how only the odd numbers got every answer right)

In a a recent post to OC, Al indicated that he does not know exactly where the energy is coming from.

And if I understand Al's posts correctly, he feels the drag is reduced in AGW compared to GW thus the rotor accelerates a bit when sync'd, and then even more when the 'load' of the secondary stators are stopped (A significant point btw).

However, it does not explain sustained RPM for any duration - consequently energy must be entering the system from somewhere. If you look back to my original posts on Steorn you will see that I gave just two possibilities. Relative Density Compression (aka doppler) or an external source of energy. Because of the structure and timing of the magnetic fields I abandoned the doppler hypothesis. This is because it would occur during negative torque period as well and the two would balance.

Only after building a mock up did I realize that this configuration has a unique torque curve and exibits cyclic magnetic shearing. During a shear event the KE of either moving part does not transfer to the other part. This allows repositioning to occur that favors positive torque. The problem here is where does the energy come from to do the repositioning?

There are two ways to look at the energy flow - In and Out. The angular momentum of the rotor causes it to overrun the stator when the two are in a shear cycle. Because energy flows out of the stator due to drag (remember during this shear the two are disconnected) it will have to depend on its own inertia to keep spinning. The result is that the negative slope of the torque cycle is diminished due to the shearing. In this case the rotor drives the system and derives a positve torque off the magnetic reconnection. Please note that during the reconnection both repulsion and attraction are in play. It is only when the alignment reaches the midpoint between rotor magnets that a negative torque becomes present. However, this is also where the shear cycle begins - rather than slow down the rotor or stator the fileld shears. If the field does not shear, then negative torque will degrade the angular momentum. This means if your magnets are too strong it won't work. Also note that bearing and air drag play a part in the shearing and are counter productive to the stator momentum that is required to shear through the negative torque curve. Obviously this is a delicate balance. Why does this work, doesn't it show a violation to COE? Not exactly, it is true that frictional losses show energy flowing out, but the positive torque is generated do to the shear offset - thus, during sustained RPM the energy this force represents must balance in the system somewhere and it is here that it is converted to loss energy. So to keep the magnetic COE in balance the rotor must turn to offset the drag otherwise our magnets would depolarize. We are looking at positive and negative energy in balance.

The other way of looking at the system is to introduce energy from outside. It's been noted that external fields can inductively power this type of device. Thus certain magnetic frequencies would be needed to display the operation as observed and 50 or 60 cycles per second does not 'due' it. But given the right harmonic a rotating field could perform the given action but only in one direction the direction of the rotating field. I don't know if Al has obtained acceleration in both directions - I think I read somewhere that he did. If so, then the rotating field must be turned 90 degrees to achieve both and it would dropout when reoriented. Because of these complexities it makes it difficult to accept that 'wireless' energy is being provided - but I am open to any experiments to prove it.

We need a mathematician that can accurately model the torque and momentum interactions during the shear periods. This will tell us precisely the needed drag and magnatism for the weight involved.

Cheers,
Harvey
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Sat May 03, 2008 12:57 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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That's a very clear analysis, Harvey. I think you have illuminated a couple of the remarkable behaviors of this system. I hadn't considered that, during the moment of shear, the momenta of the rotor and stator are effectively uncoupled for a moment. I think this is also equivalent to the effect that properly synchronized latches would have, as OC derived from his vision.

I believe we are able to begin ruling out hypotheses, based on what is definitely known.

For example, based on the early rundown tests and some rigorous math, we know that my unit dissipates somewhere in the near thereabouts of 250 mW, and I know that its performance is orientation-independent (well, the rotor did come off once during an inverted run, but that's another story). The high power requirement and the positional independence rule out the "RB Effect", power transfer thru induction from a nearby source.

Secondly, I believe that Harvey's work, summarized in his analysis above, shows that the stators cannot be driving the rotor, at least not during most (probably all) of the cycle (for cycle it surely must be.) The stators must be driven by the rotor, certainly in GW and most probably in AGW.

Third, although I like static electricity, static is my friend, and the materials I used would certainly find utility in a static device, I don't think we can blame the video on static electricity (in spite of Esa's excellent analysis of those phenomena.) Why? Well, for one thing, it works in the warm and damp, and I don't think a static device would, without some special precautions.
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