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Question for Alsetalokin

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Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:59 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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Lakes
he has given reading off of an uncalibrated hall effect device. He has tried.

And yes it is the major left unknown variable in this.
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Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:21 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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No, he indicated that as of yet he has not had access to the expensive gaussmeters at the lab in order to provide a surface reading. Also, wouldn't you need at least 3 in relative agreement or some NIST calibrated meter to be sure? A single meter could give erroneous readings (see hall sensor test from before), two meters and you wouldn't know which one was right. At least with 3 you could split the difference between the two that have the closest readings and hope thats right.

Then, what is the tolerance of those magnets all the replicators have? How close to N42 are they? What exactly is the margin of error? And really, how sensitive is Al's rig to a variance? What is the loss ratio of the stator bearings? If they are different from each other, by how much? Are differences desired? Necessary? How much nutation is there in the rotor? Is that undesired?

Theoretically, in what ways do the magnetic field densities impact the overall function if they are increased or reduced? Does harmonic resonance play any part in the overall function? Is it a necessity? Voltage induced in a conductor by a changing magnetic field is proportional to the rate of change. A faster rotor creates a greater induction in the stators. Does this process cause homopolar currents to motorize the stators? If so, is the process recursive or addititive? If voltages are produced where currents cannot flow then we have a charging and a type of static build up unless it is drained. Could this create a pattern of charges that interact with all of the above?

Perhaps there are more unknowns than just the surface guass of the rotor magnets.

Cool
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Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:51 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Harvey wrote:

Then, what is the tolerance of those magnets all the replicators have? How close to N42 are they? What exactly is the margin of error? And really, how sensitive is Al's rig to a variance? What is the loss ratio of the stator bearings? If they are different from each other, by how much? Are differences desired? Necessary? How much nutation is there in the rotor? Is that undesired?

Theoretically, in what ways do the magnetic field densities impact the overall function if they are increased or reduced? Does harmonic resonance play any part in the overall function? Is it a necessity? Voltage induced in a conductor by a changing magnetic field is proportional to the rate of change. A faster rotor creates a greater induction in the stators. Does this process cause homopolar currents to motorize the stators? If so, is the process recursive or addititive? If voltages are produced where currents cannot flow then we have a charging and a type of static build up unless it is drained. Could this create a pattern of charges that interact with all of the above?

Perhaps there are more unknowns than just the surface guass of the rotor magnets.

Cool


Nice to know we're so close! Wink
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Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:53 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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"Nice to know we're so close!"

ROTFLMAO Laughing
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:23 pm PostPost subject:
factorfiction
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Might be a silly question, but has the original unit [as seen in the video] ever been fully operational anywhere else than in the room/location we saw in the video?

If not, why can't we have another video of it running, say in your back yard/garden/local parking lot? It doesn't need mains power to run it[?] so this shouldn't present any problem.

At least this would disprove all theories that the device was 'a hoax' would it not?

And all of the other people trying to reproduce a similar unit would then be encouraged to continue with their efforts.
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:57 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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factorfiction wrote:
Might be a silly question, but has the original unit [as seen in the video] ever been fully operational anywhere else than in the room/location we saw in the video?


Yes, but we only have Al's word on that.

Quote:
If not, why can't we have another video of it running, say in your back yard/garden/local parking lot? It doesn't need mains power to run it[?] so this shouldn't present any problem.

At least this would disprove all theories that the device was 'a hoax' would it not?


Another video proves nothing except that another video can be made.

Quote:
And all of the other people trying to reproduce a similar unit would then be encouraged to continue with their efforts.


Those of us who are convinced there is something worth our time continue to make an effort. Another video might draw in a few more experimenters ... along with all the critics and chaos the last video created.
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:14 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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factorfiction wrote:
Might be a silly question, but has the original unit [as seen in the video] ever been fully operational anywhere else than in the room/location we saw in the video?

If not, why can't we have another video of it running, say in your back yard/garden/local parking lot? It doesn't need mains power to run it[?] so this shouldn't present any problem.

At least this would disprove all theories that the device was 'a hoax' would it not?

And all of the other people trying to reproduce a similar unit would then be encouraged to continue with their efforts.



We have high speed video of it. Damn expensive equipment. I doubt it was done at home. That is other such vidio you requested.

Yep I would love to see one of them done with the stator idlers showing to see there relations, but I do not hold my breath. Like I said some damn expensive equipment.

More video as OC has stated proves nothing.

More replication attempts may or may not prove this thing. As I keep saying, I have not seen any attempt at an adjustable rotor magnet system YET. I am working on such.


The unknown of this are, the otiginal rotor magnets, as well as the interaction of the idlers with the stator.

Hell I can easily state that the AGW action is a game of timing to the push that keeps it in the AGW action in relation to the rotor speed. LOL proving it......


If this is a fraud, I see no reason for it. Yet it could be.

I have never even heard of some sending out parts of a system to folks. Al has, and I can vouch for that, but then again this is just a post to a board. LOL
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:12 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Lostcauses wrote:

More replication attempts may or may not prove this thing. As I keep saying, I have not seen any attempt at an adjustable rotor magnet system YET. I am working on such.


I have altered the diameter of my rotor magnets thus lowering the flux density and observed less tension with the stator. I am reasonably certain Al's rotor magnets are less than N42. The results I obtained seemed closer to the actions Al demonstrated.

Cool
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:18 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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One thing to consider is that both locations where the device worked are within the sweep range of a ground based radar station.

Perhaps at 1250 RPM it is just right to convert that energy somehow?

Not sure how the EM wave of the radar sweep might interact with the M fields of the WhiPMag rotor but it is an interesting thought.

It would be cool if Al took his with him on the TDY and could verify geographic independance for us - a major step foward if he could.

Cool
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:53 pm PostPost subject:
billgates
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lostcauses wrote:

More video as OC has stated proves nothing.


I think it depends on the type of video. Obviously another dark video would serve no purpose.

In my opinion a convincing video should have these features:
1. At first, the whipmag stopped and the rotor disassembled from the unit, put on a road in the sunlight. No excessive zoom.
2. Then Al's hand that puts the rotor in place and starts the whipmag.
3. Finally the camera in a steady position that films it for one minute, then starts rotating around it.

I think it should be very difficult to create a hoax video like this. No one till now succeeded in hiding a motor in a whipmag. Video manipulation would be almost impossible if the camera moves while the whipmag runs (in case the zoom is not excessive and the whipmag is always fully visible). Only Industrial Light&Magic could do this.

Do you agree?

Wink Wink Wink
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:06 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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"very difficult " Nope just time consuming. Just like the high speed videos.

LOL He does not care if the world believes him or not. It does seem he would like folks to replicate it due to all the help he has been giving with in his ability to do so. Again some thing I do not find in the fraud sector.

He is not saying some unknown force is doing this, or some super secret thing is doing it, he is not asking for money.

Hell he sent out one of the hardest parts to get. That spindle. It again provides folks with information.

This still is the most interesting thing going on so far.


I believe him and his toy. Yet I am still not sure I can replicate it. Yet I will keep going on a try, and to understand it. So maybe I am a fool.

But I am having fun. LOL
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:06 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Quote:

... put on a road ...


How far from the stop light sensor coils embedded in the road?

Quote:

... Al's hand ...


I suppose that would prevent replicators for attempting the video Laughing

Quote:

3. Finally the camera in a steady position that films it for one minute, then starts rotating around it.


Be sure to keep the 6kW Mag Gen behind the cameraman during this process Mr. Green

Cool
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:29 pm PostPost subject:
billgates
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lostcauses wrote:

I believe him and his toy. Yet I am still not sure I can replicate it. Yet I will keep going on a try, and to understand it. So maybe I am a fool.


I'm not saying I don't believe it... Smile .
I'm just saying that I'd like to see another video.

OK, Al doesn't think another video could help. He doesn't think it's important. Ok. We well know this.

But people that ask him another video aren't asking him the moon, just some minutes of his time. I really don't see the point in not releasing another clip (after so many months!). Neutral

As we saw with the leaked video, Al already has other videos in digital format. He could just upload them on internet and make us happy (he already uploaded many non-whipmag related videos).

It seems we're asking him a million dollars! Rolling Eyes Or to dance naked in the moonlight!

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:04 pm PostPost subject:
lostcauses
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"But people that ask him another video aren't asking him the moon"


ROTFLMAO. Worthless video is such a form as you ask.

A good one I want may be just as worthless. The one showing positions of them idlers with the AGW action and the stopped idlers in the same.

ROTFLOL
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Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:13 pm PostPost subject:
billgates
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lostcauses wrote:

ROTFLMAO. Worthless video is such a form as you ask.


It's a matter of points of view. I'd enjoy a video in the form I described. Wink

It could raise more interest in whipmag than the video you're asking... Cool
... but I admit that your video could be more useful in replication.

The solution? Let's (kindly) ask for 2 videos! Very Happy Very Happy
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Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:32 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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@Al,

On Dec 27, 2007 you wrote:
Quote:

... So, now I need to ask for someone with the interest to do some math.
I have already given the relevant dimensions in an earlier post. So, hypothetically
speaking if I were to get the rotor spinning at, say, 400 rpm by spinning it by hand; then
quickly spin a stator magnet in the same direction by flipping it with a finger, could there
be some resonant alignment of the fields that would make it "catch hold" and continue
spinning at 1600 rpm (4 x rotor rpm), both rotor and stator magnet going clockwise?
Now suppose this relationship continued locked in phase as the assembly gradually
accelerates until reaching a maximum measured rpm of 1904 rpm for the rotor, and 7633
rpm for the stator magnet, both rotating clockwise.
The math question is this: how long are the magnets in proximity, or how fast are they
passing each other, at these rotation rates?
Are we going fast enough to possibly be seeing the effects of the famous Sv?



Do you feel you have found the answer to this question or does the puzzle continue?

Cool
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Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:28 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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We did figure it out at one point. There was some confusion about locating the decimal, but we (OC and I, I think)calculated that the Sv phenomenon in NdBFe magnets operated on a time scale at least 100 and perhaps 1000 times shorter than any interactions in the OCMPMM "whipmag" version, even at the maximum observed RPM. The magnets are moving past each other just too slowly for Sv to have any significant loss effect, and certainly the Sv isn't a possible gain mechanism anyway.
At least I don't see how it could be.
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Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:00 pm PostPost subject:
jwk
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Hi All, ive been thinking about the whipmag a bit today to take my mind off the other job i was doing and i got to thinking about Homopolar motors and i wonder if you could consider the following and then tell me it's been discussed to death and i missed it or if not, what you think.

The whipmag rotor is essentially similar to a homopolar generator but without the conductive disc. Instead, as you know, you have a non conductive delrin disc. Now, would the manual spinning of this disc build up a static charge ? Because if it does then would it be possible that the static charge could be passed to the stators which are quite similar to homopolar motors ? If so then at this point im a bit lost. There is no obvious ground in the video's, unless the use and creation of more static is the ground, i have no idea really.

Anyway, its just a thought.
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:55 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Early on, the static hypothesis was considered. I think we have pretty much rejected it on the grounds that the device works even when in a high-humidity environment and while being handled.
It is true that the ground in a high-voltage static device is not always obvious.
On the other hand, I was able to show that the stators do indeed act as "AC" homopolar generators when in operation, by using tiny probe wires connected to an oscilloscope and routed to touch the stators at the appropriate points. As far as I am aware, AC homopolar generators are about as rare as hen's teeth.
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:44 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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alsetalokin wrote:

On the other hand, I was able to show that the stators do indeed act as "AC" homopolar generators when in operation, by using tiny probe wires connected to an oscilloscope and routed to touch the stators at the appropriate points. As far as I am aware, AC homopolar generators are about as rare as hen's teeth.


Did you ever check to see how much power you could draw before the system started to slow down irreversibly? Or did you check to see how placing the contacts at different positions on the stator might affect its performance?
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:25 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Alsetalokin wrote:

As far as I am aware, AC homopolar generators are about as rare as hen's teeth.


Lets see if we can identify all the little parts of the little statorgens.

1. 'Flux Source' - consisting of a diametrically magnetized ring magnet
2. Stationary Spindle 'Stator'- consisting of a SS SHC screw, inner bearing race and lower washer
3. 'Brushes' - consisting of approx 7 ferromagnetic spheres
4. 'Rotor' - Consisting of a bearing outer race.
5. 'Generator' - Comprised of 2, 3 & 4.

According to the laws in play current will be induced in a conductor when it passes through different flux densities of a magnetic field. Either can move relative to the other and still produce a current as long as the density experienced by a given point on the conductor is changing.

The 'Rotor'(4) does not experience a density change from the 'Flux Source'(1) unless it moves relative to the 'Flux Source'. We expect these two objects to have homogeneous movement. However, the 'Rotor' and 'Flux Source' could (if possible) experience induced currents as they move through density fluctuations provided by induced magnetism in the 'Stator'(2).

The 'Stator'(2) must experience the alternating magnetic field of the 'Flux Source' and will respond with an opposite polarity induced magnetic field. When the B vector of the 'Flux Source' is pointing to 0 the induced B vector of the 'Stator' will be pointing at 180. Likewise the same induced field will be present in the 'Rotor' pointing its B vector 180. So the 'Rotor' will always be in phase with the 'Stator' and both of these will be 180 out from the 'Flux Source' at all times. So we find that normally there will be no flux density changes by either the 'Flux Source' or the 'Stator' that can induce current in the 'Rotor'. Furthermore, we find that the flux flow between the 'stator' and 'rotor' through the 'brushes'(3) would complete the magnetic circuit as the path is in agreement. But what of an electrical path?

The 'Stator' only experiences currents where the 'Flux Source' is allowed to wobble or pass different densities through its conductive points. In a true, balanced rotation where the magnetic field is well centered no current will exist as the densities would be concentric and not changing relative to the points. Likewise the 'Rotor' would only experience these currents for the same reasons.

Ahh, but the 'Brushes'...now there, it gets a bit interesting. These move at a different rate from the other parts. And they must continually realign their domains to oppose the 'Flux Source' while simultaneously dealing with the induced fields of the 'Rotor' and 'Stator'. The stronger of the 3 will dictate the magnetic moment and ultimately the result will be an odd composite of the trinary interaction. Some currents will flow in these 3 and the magnetism those currents produce will be a lossy mechanism working to oppose the experienced changes.

The 'Flux Source' is electrically isolated from the 'Generator'(5). So the induced currents from the trinary interactions are not available to it to be measured. Any current produced in the 'Flux Source' must be caused by either altering its flux density across it own conductive paths or another flux source is present to do the same. Again we are faced with the wobble or nutation as being necessary to accomplish this if it is considered 'Homopolar'.

It is much more logical to conclude that the alternating poles of the 144mm WhiPMag Rotor are the source of the alternating fields needed to induce current in the 'Flux Source' and this would no longer be considered 'homopolar' but it would provide a significant fluctuation of density capable of producing the observed voltages.

But hey, its 2:23 AM and I'm only typing with one eye open, so who knows if anything I've written here amounts to more than a hill of beans. Mr. Green

Cheers,

Cool
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@Harvey,

Simplest test I can think of would be an AC homopolar generator consisting of:

one diametrically magnetized disc magnet, a WhipMag stator will do nicely,
mounted on a shaft
and spun up to a high speed, like a mini flywheel
measure between shaft and edge

The magnet doubles as conductive disc via its plating

This should be enough to show whether the AC homopolar effect is produced by the the spinning stator alone or requires the interaction with the rotor. If this does not produce any measureable AC current, a bearing can be added to see if that changes things.

Anybody with a dremel or high speed motor and a scope want to try this?
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:06 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Excellent analysis, Harvey.
One needs to try OC's experiment, which I have not done, and don't have the equipment for here.
The path by which the "brushes" approach the spinning magnet is another variable that could introduce spurious measurements.
No, I have no idea of the power available. I imagine it is extremely small. I don't recall exactly the magnitude of the voltage swing, but it probably was on the order of a few millivolts P-P, into 1 megohm.
I experimented only a little bit with different locations. My stator magnets are almost completely covered, except for their top surfaces, when in the mounts, so I tried to drag a contact wire inside the axial hole and another along the outer edge of the top surface. I approached the magnet from various angles. I don't have my notes here so I can't give any more details, sorry.
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:37 pm PostPost subject:
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@OC

I tried your experiment way back, and got no readings, I conclued it was because the axis of rotation on the stator magnet was wrong. I only used a small multimeter, not very good, but when I used a 3" O/D speaker magnet glued to a aluminium spindle I saw readings in the region of 25mv, and by changing the leads around saw positive and negative readings.
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:45 pm PostPost subject:
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MADPROF wrote:
@OC

I tried your experiment way back, and got no readings, I conclued it was because the axis of rotation on the stator magnet was wrong. I only used a small multimeter, not very good, but when I used a 3" O/D speaker magnet glued to a aluminium spindle I saw readings in the region of 25mv, and by changing the leads around saw positive and negative readings.


You checked for AC voltage?
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:56 pm PostPost subject:
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overconfident wrote:
MADPROF wrote:
@OC

I tried your experiment way back, and got no readings, I conclued it was because the axis of rotation on the stator magnet was wrong. I only used a small multimeter, not very good, but when I used a 3" O/D speaker magnet glued to a aluminium spindle I saw readings in the region of 25mv, and by changing the leads around saw positive and negative readings.


You checked for AC voltage?


NO
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Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:51 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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OC wrote:

... measure between shaft and edge ...


Here is the trouble with these types of tests:
The probe is conductive and the diametric field alternates through it.

For a true test one would need to have a means of viewing the generated energy without interacting with the source.

I would suggest using an FET to trigger an onboard amp. The amp could then drive a transmitter - either RF or visible light along the axial path to an offboard receiver. Since the sensor would be rotating with the magnet the only two sources of energy generation would be homopolar or an offboard field. The earths field should be too weak to penetrate the 834's field. Of course a small power source would be needed to drive the amp but this is isolated by the FET layer. If there are any free electrons being generated they would be present at this layer.

Feels like Faraday all over again Razz

Cool
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Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:58 pm PostPost subject:
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Harvey wrote:
OC wrote:

... measure between shaft and edge ...


Here is the trouble with these types of tests:
The probe is conductive and the diametric field alternates through it.

For a true test one would need to have a means of viewing the generated energy without interacting with the source.

I would suggest using an FET to trigger an onboard amp. The amp could then drive a transmitter - either RF or visible light along the axial path to an offboard receiver. Since the sensor would be rotating with the magnet the only two sources of energy generation would be homopolar or an offboard field. The earths field should be too weak to penetrate the 834's field. Of course a small power source would be needed to drive the amp but this is isolated by the FET layer. If there are any free electrons being generated they would be present at this layer.

Feels like Faraday all over again Razz

Cool



Wouldn't the fact of the fet being on board (the rotor?) mean that it would become part of the rotor and not see any effect (voltage or otherwise) as there would be no differential ? I have read somewhere of a similar experiment with a homopolar motor (an led mounted on the rotor) which did not function whilst part of the rotor.

But bear in mind i could be completely wrong and thinking about or getting something else wrong.



edit to add, it was explained as being the same reason we cannot measure voltage from this great big spinning magnet/planet of ours.
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Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:27 pm PostPost subject:
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You are referring to Tom Valone's tests that are described in his Homopolar Handbook, p.24. If the metering device is rotating with the disc it apparently does not see the voltage. Weird, huh?
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Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:39 pm PostPost subject:
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alsetalokin wrote:
You are referring to Tom Valone's tests that are described in his Homopolar Handbook, p.24. If the metering device is rotating with the disc it apparently does not see the voltage. Weird, huh?


That sounds like it. (I've ordered the book)

tbh it doesn't seem that weird once you consider a homopolar generator or motor. It seems ..expected ?

However i am coming from an (as yet) uneducated in physics viewpoint.
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