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Now that's just silly

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Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:03 pm PostPost subject: Now that's just silly
toiz
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alsetalokin wrote:
billgates wrote:
loreman wrote:
Al,

It can all be ended in a moment. Why does the device which you showed on Youtube accelerate? Nobody's guessed, everyone's frustrated, have pity/mercy on us all and tell us what it is that everyone's missed.


@Al:
Same question:
Why does the device which you showed on Youtube accelerate? Sad


Because the total running friction decreases!!!



So if I reduce the friction in the wheels of my roller chair I will begin to accelerate across the floor?

As I recall:

F=ma

What force causes the Whipmag to accelerate?
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:06 pm PostPost subject:
toiz
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alsetalokin wrote:
I have said before, if you can get AGW lock at around 1250 rotor, 5000 stator RPM, with whatever magnets you are using, you should be able, easily, to reproduce everything I have seen. If only you could free yourselves of your preconceptions and pet theories.
alsetalokin wrote:
And others have done this too, and not seen any acceleration. Why? Because all those "replicators" were trying to make a free energy device, a MPMM, from permanent magnets. This is, of course, impossible. Not a single "replicator" that I know of, has actually tried to replicate exactly what was shown in the video. Everybody has tried to "replicate" what they wanted to see, which is a free energy device. Sorry, ain't no such animal, as I have said over and over and over.
alsetalokin wrote:
I have given all detail necessary to replicate. If you can't do it, it's not my fault.
alsetalokin wrote:
Obviously, I want to keep my magnets. I think there is considerable variation in some property of these magnets, as only some of my 15 stator magnets seem to produce the effect. So I don't want to let them out of my possession.

I don't get it?! I don't have any preconceptions or pet theories and I highly doubt I could reproduce what he has shown in his video.

I disagree that Al has given all the detail necessary to replicate. What drives the Whipmag to accelerate? That is a key detail. So yes, it is his fault no one has replicated.

If he doesn't understand what is causing the effect, how can he say someone "should be able to, easily" reproduce everything he has seen?

If it's some unique variation in some property of his magnets that contribute to the effect, how can he say the only requirement is AGW lock at 1250 rpm rotor, 5000 rpm stator?
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:39 pm PostPost subject:
cloud camper
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Hey it's not silly if you have Magic Magnets!!!
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:52 pm PostPost subject:
toiz
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alsetalokin wrote:
(Also from Wikipedia:)
"A hoax is an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real. There is often some material object (e.g., snake oil) involved which is actually a forgery; however, it is possible to perpetrate a hoax by making only true statements using unfamiliar wording or context (see DHMO). Unlike a fraud or con (which is usually aimed at a single victim and are made for illicit financial or material gain), a hoax is often perpetrated as a practical joke, to cause embarrassment, or to provoke social change by making people aware of something. Many hoaxes are motivated by a desire to satirize or educate by exposing the credulity of the public and the media or the absurdity of the target. For instance, the hoaxes of James Randi poke fun at believers in the paranormal. The many hoaxes of Alan Abel and Joey Skaggs satirize people's willingness to believe the media. Political hoaxes are sometimes motivated by the desire to ridicule or besmirch opposing politicians or political institutions, often before elections."

I can say here that the story of the OC MPMM, aka "whipmag", doesn't quite fit this definition either. After all, I have continually tried to get people to believe that it is NOT an overunity device, that magnetic perpetual motion machines cannot possibly work, etc. That is, I have been trying to get people to believe, not that "something false is real", but rather that something false is false (Steorn). This isn't a hoax, by any definition or stretch of the imagination, no matter what @Omnibus might want to believe..
Two comments on this:

1) How is anything Al done consistent with getting people to believe Steorn or any other OU claim must be false (why should he care)? I can't see how anything Al has said or done would change anyone's opinion of Steorn or OU. In fact, I would argue that he might convince some to believe.

2) Whipmag must have stored or added energy to accelerate. If Al knows the source of this energy, than this is a hoax. If he does not know the source, than his comments regarding how easily this can be reproduced or the only requirement for the magnets is AGW lock at 1250 rpm rotor, 5000 rpm stator are false.
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:56 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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"So if I reduce the friction in the wheels of my roller chair I will begin to accelerate across the floor?

As I recall:

F=ma "

Actually, those are vectors. The vector F = m (dot) the vector a. So the acceleration is in the same direction as the force. To stick with your example, if you remove the friction that is retarding the main force on your chair (gravity) yes, you will fall through the floor (accelerate in the direction of the force.) If someone is leaning on your chair lightly, and you reduce the friction in your wheels, you will indeed accelerate across the floor in the direction of the applied force.
In the case of the MPMM, what I am sure is happening is that the two GW stators are driven by the rotor, hence dissipating power (that is, dragging the rotor) and when they are stopped, the rotor accelerates to a new equilibrium RPM.

"I don't get it?! I don't have any preconceptions or pet theories and I highly doubt I could reproduce what he has shown in his video. "

What? Read that again, out loud. Rolling Eyes

"Hey it's not silly if you have Magic Magnets!!!"

Or Butter Bearings.... Mr. Green
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:03 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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toiz wrote:
alsetalokin wrote:
(Also from Wikipedia:)
"A hoax is an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real. There is often some material object (e.g., snake oil) involved which is actually a forgery; however, it is possible to perpetrate a hoax by making only true statements using unfamiliar wording or context (see DHMO). Unlike a fraud or con (which is usually aimed at a single victim and are made for illicit financial or material gain), a hoax is often perpetrated as a practical joke, to cause embarrassment, or to provoke social change by making people aware of something. Many hoaxes are motivated by a desire to satirize or educate by exposing the credulity of the public and the media or the absurdity of the target. For instance, the hoaxes of James Randi poke fun at believers in the paranormal. The many hoaxes of Alan Abel and Joey Skaggs satirize people's willingness to believe the media. Political hoaxes are sometimes motivated by the desire to ridicule or besmirch opposing politicians or political institutions, often before elections."

I can say here that the story of the OC MPMM, aka "whipmag", doesn't quite fit this definition either. After all, I have continually tried to get people to believe that it is NOT an overunity device, that magnetic perpetual motion machines cannot possibly work, etc. That is, I have been trying to get people to believe, not that "something false is real", but rather that something false is false (Steorn). This isn't a hoax, by any definition or stretch of the imagination, no matter what @Omnibus might want to believe..
Two comments on this:

1) How is anything Al done consistent with getting people to believe Steorn or any other OU claim must be false (why should he care)? I can't see how anything Al has said or done would change anyone's opinion of Steorn or OU. In fact, I would argue that he might convince some to believe.

2) Whipmag must have stored or added energy to accelerate. If Al knows the source of this energy, than this is a hoax. If he does not know the source, than his comments regarding how easily this can be reproduced or the only requirement for the magnets is AGW lock at 1250 rpm rotor, 5000 rpm stator are false.


Well, 1) is pretty much wrong. I think folks know a lot more about how to evaluate claims like Steorn's now, especially the silly one about the bearings. It is true that beliefs seem to have polarized a bit, that is, Babcat and others like him seem to believe more strongly (as expected) but I think that on the whole rational skepticism has increased. Why should I care? That's way too complex an issue to go into here, except that I make my living investigating claims like Steorn's, and I'm getting tired of encountering so many blatant frauds.

2) I've already said that my best theory of its operation postulates around 17,000 Joules of energy available for momentum change. And the remarks about the rpms had to do with the required magnet strength, I believe. You are taking it (and a lot of other stuff) way out of context. But that is expected, too.
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:13 pm PostPost subject:
buggyirk
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I don't know if you want to tell people, because it would probly get their hopes of this being OU up, but have you got your whipmag to run longer than 7 hours recently. I am just curious. Smile
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:20 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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buggyirk wrote:
I don't know if you want to tell people, because it would probly get their hopes of this being OU up, but have you got your whipmag to run longer than 7 hours recently. I am just curious. Smile


I have not run it at all recently. Sorry.
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:28 pm PostPost subject:
toiz
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alsetalokin wrote:
What? Read that again, out loud. Rolling Eyes

Read it again, out loud. What are my preconceptions or pet theories? Maybe you can enlighten me.

I can see and hear it accelerate. That's all I know.

alsetalokin wrote:
on the whole rational skepticism has increased

I think either you have this or you don't. It's not easily taught, especially in a forum like this.

alsetalokin wrote:
except that I make my living investigating claims like Steorn's, and I'm getting tired of encountering so many blatant frauds

Good enough. Why do you do what you do if you don't believe it to be possible?

alsetalokin wrote:
I've already said that my best theory of its operation postulates around 17,000 Joules of energy available for momentum change.

Don't you think sharing your theory might help others replicate? I'm curious what your theory is that would make th 17000 Joules available.

alsetalokin wrote:
You are taking it (and a lot of other stuff) way out of context.

I knew that comment was coming. I'm only trying to better understand.
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:00 pm PostPost subject:
cloud camper
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At least Steorn did not try to insult our intelligence with a faked video! Wink
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Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:46 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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alsetalokin wrote:

So the acceleration is in the same direction as the force. To stick with your example, if you remove the friction that is retarding the main force on your chair (gravity) yes, you will fall through the floor (accelerate in the direction of the force.) If someone is leaning on your chair lightly, and you reduce the friction in your wheels, you will indeed accelerate across the floor in the direction of the applied force.
In the case of the MPMM, what I am sure is happening is that the two GW stators are driven by the rotor, hence dissipating power (that is, dragging the rotor) and when they are stopped, the rotor accelerates to a new equilibrium RPM.


But what is the source of the force?

The following statements are based on my layman's understanding of physics.

1) We have a rotor to which we apply a given force in a given direction. Under ideal conditions (no friction or mechanical, aerodynamic, or magnetic drag) the rotor will spin at a constant speed. Under realistic conditions, as implemented the rotor will decelerate continuously due to the factors mentioned. The angular momentum of this spinning rotor and stators at any given moment represent a given amount of kinetic energy, which should never increase without application of an external force.

2) We stop one of the GW spinning stators and do not perceive any noticable change in kinetic behavior.

3) We flick (apply an external force) the stopped stator AGW with enough force to allow it to synchronize with the spinning rotor and immediately see a significant acceleration in the rotor and the other two stators. Drag forces should also increase with the increased speed, yet the rotor and all stators seem to maintain this higher kinetic state with little or no loss.

a) Was the finger-flipping force we applied to the stator sufficient to account for the all the additional momentum gained?

4) We stop the GW spinning stators and see another acceleration. In order for the rotor to accelerate again, external forces are required. We applied brakes to the stators. Normally we would expect this to dissipate energy and result in a lower kinetic state. If we had removed all drag, the rotor and AGW stator would simply continue to rotate at the same speed. Yet we see another increase in momentum. This implies that an external force is being applied.

b) What is the source of energy for the additional gain in momentum? The AGW spinning stator? Some sort of magnetic energy transfer from the stopped stators?


In the first case a finger flip supplied some additonal energy. In the second case, an external force was applied to stop two stators. In both cases, the energy applied appears to be insufficient to explain the resulting acceleration.

The maximum spindown time for the rotor for a given applied force should be, by accepted standards, in a vacuum when there are no stators present. Any other conditions should result in shorter spindown times.

OC
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:16 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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cloud camper wrote:
At least Steorn did not try to insult our intelligence with a faked video! Wink


No, they did it with a Minato Motor!!

Laughing


(the video wasn't faked--it was a totally real video, no special effects at all...)
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:21 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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I can't argue with OC's analysis at all. But it sort of depends on the definition of "external force". If the magnets themselves decay in strength, does that count as an "external force"? Would Steorn's "magnetic viscosity" count as, or act as, an external force? And so forth.
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:23 am PostPost subject:
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@Al

I don't know if this is off the subject, but does your whipmag work with the one agw stator and the other two stators removed?


Last edited by buggyirk on Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:26 am; edited 3 times in total
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:24 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Magnetic energy is considered to be conservative. If you take this approach, the magnetic interactions should balance out and have no effect other than to add to other factors like friction in the bearings.
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:25 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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"Why do you do what you do if you don't believe it to be possible?"

A good question. Several reasons come to the fore, and I'm sure there are subtle psychological ones that I'm not aware of.
Mostly because I can't seem to get a job doing anything else, even though I have an awesome skill set. I'm not quite in Archer Quinn's league, but almost.
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:27 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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buggyirk wrote:
@Al

I don't know if this is off the subject, but does your whipmag work with the one agw stator and the other two stators removed?


I've never been able to sustain AGW rotation in that configuration, IIRC. There was one event where I tried to take a stator off while the thing was running, but it didn't work out.
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:30 am PostPost subject:
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alsetalokin wrote:
buggyirk wrote:
@Al

I don't know if this is off the subject, but does your whipmag work with the one agw stator and the other two stators removed?


I've never been able to sustain AGW rotation in that configuration, IIRC. There was one event where I tried to take a stator off while the thing was running, but it didn't work out.


That's a shame. If it did, maybe you would be able to spare one of your working magnets. Sad


Last edited by buggyirk on Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:30 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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overconfident wrote:
Magnetic energy is considered to be conservative. If you take this approach, the magnetic interactions should balance out and have no effect other than to add to other factors like friction in the bearings.


MM-hmmm. I agree. Unless of course something else happens to add energy to the system at some point in the cycle. Isn't that what proponents of magnet motors must believe, and must work toward?
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:32 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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buggyirk wrote:

That's a shame. If it did, maybe you would be able to spare one of your working magnets. Sad


Magnets don't perform work!!!

(I know that's not what you meant, but I just couldn't resist...)

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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:33 am PostPost subject:
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After further experimentaion, did you achieve a longer spin down time than 7 hours? Wink
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:35 am PostPost subject:
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No. The reported seven-hour plus run was the longest. And if I am right about the 17000 Joules, that would just about be the limit. (We know that it dissipates 150-250 mW at 1250 rrpm.)
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:37 am PostPost subject:
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alsetalokin wrote:
No. The reported seven-hour plus run was the longest. And if I am right about the 17000 Joules, that would just about be the limit. (We know that it dissipates 150-250 mW at 1250 rrpm.)


So you couldn't get it to run longer than 7 hours.......................... or you didn't keep it running for longer than 7 hours? Just so it's very clear to people. You knnow how they can be. Rolling Eyes
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:53 am PostPost subject:
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alsetalokin wrote:
overconfident wrote:
Magnetic energy is considered to be conservative. If you take this approach, the magnetic interactions should balance out and have no effect other than to add to other factors like friction in the bearings.


MM-hmmm. I agree. Unless of course something else happens to add energy to the system at some point in the cycle.


And in the case we have spinning in your kitchen, what might be the source of that added energy?

alsetalokin wrote:
Isn't that what proponents of magnet motors must believe, and must work toward?


Actually, I think it's the opposite. We who think it might be possible to create magnet motors see permanent magnets as an (almost) endless source of energy. Nothing need be added.
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:21 am PostPost subject:
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I actually like Al in a weird sort of way. Definitely plays his own tune but why should
anyone take him seriously. All you have is a crappy two minute easily faked video and
a bunch of erratic nonsensical online behaviour.
Please throw us doubters a bone (or more ammo) to crucify you with. It won't prove
anything but will keep the peanut gallery going for months! Twisted Evil
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:13 am PostPost subject:
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17000 J dissipated at 0.25W. Wouldn't it run for about 21 hours?

17000 J is a pretty specific number. You have to know quite a bit about what's going on to determine a number like that.
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:33 am PostPost subject:
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Al, what do you mean with "Butter Bearings"?
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:26 pm PostPost subject:
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alsetalokin wrote:
I can't argue with OC's analysis at all. But it sort of depends on the definition of "external force". If the magnets themselves decay in strength, does that count as an "external force"? Would Steorn's "magnetic viscosity" count as, or act as, an external force? And so forth.


I thought you said there was no discernable change in the strength of the magnets. If that is so, then it still leaves the "external force" unaccounted for.
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:44 pm PostPost subject:
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toiz wrote:
17000 J dissipated at 0.25W. Wouldn't it run for about 21 hours?

17000 J is a pretty specific number. You have to know quite a bit about what's going on to determine a number like that.


That, plus it would be incredibly easy to do an experiment to prove or disprove that theory.
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Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:58 pm PostPost subject:
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toiz wrote:
17000 J dissipated at 0.25W. Wouldn't it run for about 21 hours?

17000 J is a pretty specific number. You have to know quite a bit about what's going on to determine a number like that.



1 x AA Ni-MH Battery = 1.2 Volts x 2000 mAh = 8640 J
2 x AA Ni-MH Battery = 17280 J

(there are no batteries, but I like the coincidence)
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