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Whipmag with an orbiting stator

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Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:00 pm PostPost subject:
ebswift
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Al, at least pick a capable person (and someone who can talk on the 'net without losing their job) and privately mentor them into replication. Maybe choose someone who has already built an exact replication of all parts, so they're already 99% of the way there and shouldn't take much of your time. At least then it's a two-way discussion (edit: when it's the mentor discussing design aspects back on the 'net) that can be reinforced with more detailed pictures, video etc. I'm actually surprised that you re-surfaced on the internet at all, but since you have, you really should consider this request.
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Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:11 pm PostPost subject: Re: Same question
alsetalokin
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billgates wrote:
loreman wrote:
Al,

It can all be ended in a moment. Why does the device which you showed on Youtube accelerate? Nobody's guessed, everyone's frustrated, have pity/mercy on us all and tell us what it is that everyone's missed.


@Al:
Same question:
Why does the device which you showed on Youtube accelerate? Sad


Because the total running friction decreases!!!

Now, will someone remind me how it is that I owe anybody anything, or "should" be doing any particular thing at all...???

I have given all detail necessary to replicate. If you can't do it, it's not my fault.
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Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:07 pm PostPost subject: Re: Same question
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alsetalokin wrote:

Now, will someone remind me how it is that I owe anybody anything, or "should" be doing any particular thing at all...???

I have given all detail necessary to replicate. If you can't do it, it's not my fault.


Didn't you start this whole thing with OC to disprove OC's ideas about an overunity device. Maybe you could finish doing what you set out to do in the first place. This isn't ment to be mean either. Just prove to OC that he is bonkers. Very Happy
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Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:56 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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OC's not bonkers (as far as I can tell). He has a serious idea, that I started to work on but got sidetracked from. I still think it won't work, but I simply don't have time to build the intricate machinery that it seems to require.
But at least others have finally gotten interested enough in his original idea to try to work towards it.
As always, Ping is thinking critically. But recall several points: the MagnoKinetic Judson dampers are exactly the same size as the stator magnets: 1/2 x 1/4 inch with a 3/16 hole in the center. If they contain batteries, I would like to get a hold of some more of those batteries. Modervador has shown that the device must dissipate between 150 and 250 mW while running, and the long runs would seem to require a rather large power density, if the dampers contained the power source. And while wireless transmission of power is one of my areas of interest, I require high votage and high frequencies for that.
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Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:03 pm PostPost subject: Re: Same question
overconfident
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alsetalokin wrote:
billgates wrote:
loreman wrote:
Al,

It can all be ended in a moment. Why does the device which you showed on Youtube accelerate? Nobody's guessed, everyone's frustrated, have pity/mercy on us all and tell us what it is that everyone's missed.


@Al:
Same question:
Why does the device which you showed on Youtube accelerate? :(


Because the total running friction decreases!!!

Now, will someone remind me how it is that I owe anybody anything, or "should" be doing any particular thing at all...???

I have given all detail necessary to replicate. If you can't do it, it's not my fault.


Hmmm ... interesting. It would seem to me that reducing friction, even all the way to zero would simply cause it to decelerate slower, at most to the point where the rotor would sustain a given speed indefinitely. Reducing friction should not allow the rotor to accelerate. And there is still air resistance to consider. And the video certainly didn't sound like friction had been reduced.

Unless we can reduce friction below zero?

There still has to be some sort of (electro)magnetic effect involved. Or is there something wrong with my thinking?

Thanks for coming clean, Al.
OC
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Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:10 pm PostPost subject:
buggyirk
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I know OC isn't bonkers, it was a joke. Laughing

So what do you attribute to the extended running times of your device. Have you proved to yourself that it is not stray emf? Do you have any new theories about it? Have you experimented any further with it?
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Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:19 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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buggyirk wrote:
I know OC isn't bonkers, it was a joke. :lol:


I don't know if "bonkers" is the right word, but when I decided to move to the hills and asked if the company would still like to keep me in their employ ... they seemed almost relieved. They like my work, but prefer to keep me at a distance. They have only seen my face 1 time in the past 3 years.

buggyirk wrote:

So what do you attribute to the extended running times of your device. Have you proved to yourself that it is not stray emf? Do you have any new theories about it? Have you experimented any further with it?


Al just got through answering that question. Read above.
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Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:26 pm PostPost subject:
buggyirk
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overconfident wrote:


Al just got through answering that question. Read above.


But because of reduced friction it ran for seven hours? Come on now. But if that is his conclusion, who am I to interpret his testing.

Sounds like you have a pretty sweet job man. I am secluded, but feel too forgotten if I don't make an apperance occationaly. Very Happy

edit: Obviously I am no english teacher. Stupid spelling. Evil or Very Mad
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:53 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@OC

Hi
started testing a coulpe of hours ago, not a lot to report, except when it reaches a certain RPM the two stators spining G.W drop out of sync but not the A.G.W stator that just keeps on going, but it sounds just like Al's when it happens.

I have been moving the dampers about while it is powered up and can not hear any differance in the sound it's making.

I will keep you up to date.
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:12 pm PostPost subject:
buggyirk
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MADPROF wrote:
@OC

Hi
started testing a coulpe of hours ago, not a lot to report, except when it reaches a certain RPM the two stators spining G.W drop out of sync but not the A.G.W stator that just keeps on going, but it sounds just like Al's when it happens.

I have been moving the dampers about while it is powered up and can not hear any differance in the sound it's making.

I will keep you up to date.


Wow! That is great. One question. Do the other stators drop out of sink when you start the agw stator? If so, it sounds like you are on your way to something cool. Very interesting if I do say so myself. Wink

edit: Sorry, just thought of another question. What specs are you using for yours? From the pdf or just making it up as you go?
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:34 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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buggyirk wrote:

Wow! That is great. One question. Do the other stators drop out of sink when you start the agw stator? If so, it sounds like you are on your way to something cool. Very interesting if I do say so myself.

edit: Sorry, just thought of another question. What specs are you using for yours? From the pdf or just making it up as you go?


Don't get your hopes up, this is looking like a no brainer!!

Motor starts to spin the rotor up, then I flip stator to get A.G.W lock, the other two stator just spin G.W on their own, then at about 2000 RPM they drop out of sync but the other stator keeps going.

If you touch the A.G.W stator with a piece of card it drops out straight away.

All I have found is, there is no way Al used batteries to do this, you need so much power to drive all three stators. Sad
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:44 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@Al

Nice to see you posting again. You know how to light the forum up, it makes for good reading. Smile

I'm not going to beg for answers ( don't do begging, well may be for sex Laughing )you will tell when you are good and ready.

Best wishes
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:29 pm PostPost subject:
buggyirk
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MADPROF wrote:


Don't get your hopes up, this is looking like a no brainer!!

Motor starts to spin the rotor up, then I flip stator to get A.G.W lock, the other two stator just spin G.W on their own, then at about 2000 RPM they drop out of sync but the other stator keeps going.

If you touch the A.G.W stator with a piece of card it drops out straight away.

All I have found is, there is no way Al used batteries to do this, you need so much power to drive all three stators. Sad


I didn't know you were using a motor for your rotor. Have you tried cutting power once the other stators drop out? To see if it will keep going?
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:50 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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@OC and MADPROF

Have you guys seen the Hamel spinner? It reminds me of OC's dream of spinning vortices - -but on steroids.

.. Hamel Spinner: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/hfrnrgen.htm <= animation towards bottom of page

Speaking of vortices ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgyY47duCM&feature=related

Cheers Smile
Yada..
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:39 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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Yada wrote:

Have you guys seen the Hamel spinner? It reminds me of OC's dream of spinning vortices - -but on steroids.

.. Hamel Spinner: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/hfrnrgen.htm <= animation towards bottom of page

Speaking of vortices ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgyY47duCM&feature=related


Cheers Yarda,

I have been looking at this for weeks.


http://www.linux-host.org/energy/shamel3.htm


This guy used to fasten his rigs to solid concrete footings, so he didnít loose them!!
He spent thousands of bucks on MARBLE components for his rigs, This is the guy who stopped all the cars on the freeway outside his ranch.

TTFN. Laughing
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:14 am PostPost subject:
loreman
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Thanks for answering Al
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:50 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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MADPROF wrote:
Yada wrote:

Have you guys seen the Hamel spinner? It reminds me of OC's dream of spinning vortices - -but on steroids.

.. Hamel Spinner: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/hfrnrgen.htm <= animation towards bottom of page

Speaking of vortices ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgyY47duCM&feature=related

Cheers Yarda,

I have been looking at this for weeks.

http://www.linux-host.org/energy/shamel3.htm

This guy used to fasten his rigs to solid concrete footings, so he didnít loose them!!
He spent thousands of bucks on MARBLE components for his rigs, This is the guy who stopped all the cars on the freeway outside his ranch.

TTFN. Laughing


@MADPROF, OC

..Q: What did you think of Green's motor, vortices, and the "missing stator magnet?" Whipmag possibilities?

Imagine OC's circumferential array of TriForce stators, and then remove one to break the array. See video.

... Green's Motor with Missing Magnet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgyY47duCM&feature=related

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:09 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Yadaraf wrote:

Imagine OC's circumferential array of TriForce stators, and then remove one to break the array. See video.

... Green's Motor with Missing Magnet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgyY47duCM&feature=related


I tried it with a gap between ends. Didn't see anything interesting. I think the Green Motor is configurd radially, one pole inside and the other outside. It's more like the Paul Sprain motor, but with a hand instead of an electromagnet. TriForce is different.

I'm done with the TriForce arrangement unless I think of or someone suggests something I think might have potential. I'm in the process of creating a whole slew of mini-stators for my whipmag.
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:46 am PostPost subject:
JoinTheFun
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MADPROF wrote:
@Al
...I'm not going to beg for answers ( don't do begging, well may be for sex Laughing )...


Sure about that ? You don't even know what Al looks like....
Razz
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:15 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@Join The Fun

Ha ha ha ha ha ha Laughing
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:28 pm PostPost subject:
MADPROF
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@Yada

Mr Greens motor is just a Hamel spinner at the end of the day. Putting a plastic shaft in to it to make a generator would not work, the forces would just balance out, that is why Hamel went on to to his muilti cone setups, these could work as this is a 3D movement over different levels, and a balance would be hard to find.
The only reason Greens & Hamel's spinners work is the movement of the HAND holding the stator.

Hamel took a lot of flack over his little green men telling him how to do it, but he could of DREAMED it Laughing

The Dream Machine must have changing movements, no set pattern to stop this balancing happening.

TTFN Wink
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:16 pm PostPost subject: Missing details
billgates
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alsetalokin wrote:
I have given all detail necessary to replicate. If you can't do it, it's not my fault.


This is not true. There are some fundamental details you didn't give us for replication, for example the exact power of magnets you used and also how much current you provided as input to make the motor run (if it runs by using external power).
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:27 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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overconfident wrote:

I'm done with the TriForce arrangement unless I think of or someone suggests something I think might have potential. I'm in the process of creating a whole slew of mini-stators for my whipmag.


@OC

... some construction thoughts ...

I saw that you used a straw as a carrier for a cylindrical magnet.

Nylon spacers (from Lowe's, etc) make reasonable carriers and journal bearings -- where the ID of one matches the OD of another, thus allowing them to rotate concentrically. In addition, such assemblies can be hot glued to rotors, etc., without damage. I've had fairly good success with these during rapid prototyping.

Cheers Smile
Yada...
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:57 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Taking some advice from MADPROF, I took one of my wooden blocks and notched the corner 3/8" deep to make a drill guide. I then drilled 1/4" holes through the corners of 15 blocks, cut off some 1 1/4" lengths of 1/4" dowel and inserted through the holes, then cut off some short lengths of plastic soda straw and forced over the protruding dowels. The 5mm diametrically magnetized neos fit inside the straw nice and loose and spin without any problem.

I added a couple photos and a brief video clip at:
http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/ll48/overconfident/stators/

I haven't seen anything worth talking about just yet. But I'm just getting started.

@Yada, thanks for the hint. The straws seem to do what I need for the moment. If I ever get any prolonged runs (hours?), I'll consider those nylon spacers you suggested. For the experimentation I'm doing at the moment, the straws will suffice.

OC
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:34 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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overconfident wrote:
Taking some advice from MADPROF, I took one of my wooden blocks and notched the corner 3/8" deep to make a drill guide. I then drilled 1/4" holes through the corners of 15 blocks, cut off some 1 1/4" lengths of 1/4" dowel and inserted through the holes, then cut off some short lengths of plastic soda straw and forced over the protruding dowels. The 5mm diametrically magnetized neos fit inside the straw nice and loose and spin without any problem.

I added a couple photos and a brief video clip at:
http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/ll48/overconfident/stators/

I haven't seen anything worth talking about just yet. But I'm just getting started.

@Yada, thanks for the hint. The straws seem to do what I need for the moment. If I ever get any prolonged runs (hours?), I'll consider those nylon spacers you suggested. For the experimentation I'm doing at the moment, the straws will suffice.

OC

@OC

It looks great.

..Q: How are the blocks affixed to the base?

Cheers Smile
Yada..
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:50 pm PostPost subject:
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@OC

Done as much powered testing as I can. ZIP, F.A ,NOTHING. To all thinking Al had powered stators , forget it. Powered rotor maybe, but still quite an engineering fete.

I took the rotor to 3000RPM, stators 12000RPM for 1 hour, only the main stator was spinning A.G.W and the other two drop out after about 20secs.

I found it interesting that G.W stators will not stay in sync for long, but A.G.W will.
Burnt out Two bearings in the process.

I have 10 stator mags and ALL will spin A.G.W at all speeds.

Bearings became very noisy, so a drop of oil was used, then A.G.W became very hard to obtain so I cleaned them in thinners again and they worked.

My stator run out was .0005" between bearing end and magnet end, I knew it would be tight as I machined them on a expanding mandrel in the machine.

I read overtone's post you put up and I guess I should have got the apprentice to make it for me Laughing

Anyway no ghost magnetic fields were found, so back to the drawing board,worth a try anyway. Sad

OC your work is looking good keep it up.

P.S How do I get DXF files converted so I can post them on Photbucket or here?
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:11 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Yadaraf wrote:

It looks great.

..Q: How are the blocks affixed to the base?

Cheers :)
Yada..


When/if I find a position that shows promise I'll probably use something more permanent, start drilling more holes and such. For the moment, while things are in changing as much as they are, I'm just using a little BluTac to hold them in place.
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:12 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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overconfident wrote:
Yadaraf wrote:

It looks great.

..Q: How are the blocks affixed to the base?

Cheers Smile
Yada..


When/if I find a position that shows promise I'll probably use something more permanent, start drilling more holes and such. For the moment, while things are in changing as much as they are, I'm just using a little BluTac to hold them in place.

@OC

One other question ...

.. Q: I don't recall seeing a pic of how your rotor is mounted to the base, and I was wondering if you one?

Cheers Smile
Yada..
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:19 pm PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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@OC and MADPROF

This forum is nice and all, but because you can't attach in-line photos and videos it might be slowing down your progress. In retrospect, I think this problem hurt Steorn's research and progress as well.

.. Q: Have you considered moving this discussion to a more advanced forum?

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:02 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Yadaraf wrote:

.. Q: I don't recall seeing a pic of how your rotor is mounted to the base, and I was wondering if you one?


Here's all the parts MADPROF sent me, laid out on the mounting template. The shaft assembly (top right corner) is screwed to the center of the wooden base (an 18" diameter pine tabletop) with 4 brass wood screws.

http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/ll48/overconfident/PartsAndPieces/?action=view&current=d001.jpg

Yadaraf wrote:

.. Q: Have you considered moving this discussion to a more advanced forum?


Yes, I have considered it. But I'm hanging around here because 1) most interested people know we're here, 2) the forum meets most of our needs, 3) nobody here has been too offensive with their attacks, 4) I keep hoping Al will make an appearance and contribute something interesting

OC


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