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Measurements & calculations

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Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:31 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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alsetalokin wrote:
I have found that it is difficult to weigh magnets accurately.

How can you be sure that your scale isn't interacting with the magnets in some way other than strictly gravitationally? How do you know something in the environment isn't pushing or pulling on your magnets?
I would suggest making some kind of lightweight tare platform to elevate the magnet(s) as far above the pan of your scale as practicable.

And there are some subtle assumptions involved in weighing a bunch of things, then dividing by their count to get an individual item's weight. For example, the items must not differ too much in weight a priori. Also, if your scale only reads to the half-gram, sorry, the result of your division (to get an individual weight) can also only be accurate to the half-gram. The accuracy of those extra digits is illusory.


I found a 10" tall, old Tupperware container in one of our kitchen cabinets and using it as a tare, I reweighed my rotor magnets with 10" of plastic between magnets and pan. No differences noted within the 1 gram resolution of the scale. I weighed them 8-at-a-time, as before.

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Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:54 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Measured repulsion distance of two of the SuperMagnetMan N38 cylinders. Used a Wendy's soda straw cut approximately the length I needed, so the top magnet floats with a little bit exposed above the top of the straw. Anchored the bottom of the straw with BluTac. Discovered if I brought a steel rule slowlyand evenly in from the side, it had very little effect on the height and would provide a reasonably accurate reading. I also tried a plastic ruler, but the steel scale was easier to read and stood nicely upright while I snapped the photo.

Just subtract 1" overall to determine the gap between magnets (1 3/16").

http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/ll48/overconfident/PartsAndPieces/?action=view&current=e018.jpg

Apologies for the camera shake. Flash just washed everthing out with a bright glare.
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Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:37 pm PostPost subject:
INVENTOR
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o.k....Hello everyone.
Sooo Yarda and MADPROF........what diameter did you come up with for the rotor??? 144mm(5.6693) or 5.750 or 5.375(measurment from photo)
and are the rotor mags center line, in .375 from outer edge of rotor??

Yarda...nice machining work on the base, i was going to do the same thing and make the stators adjustable.

This is some dimensions i came up with if we wanted 4 revs of stator to 1 rev of rotor., but rotor would be bigger than photos.

I was also thinking the same, as I read about the bearings..cleaning out the grease and replacing with light special oil.

[img][/img]
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Last edited by INVENTOR on Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:39 pm PostPost subject:
INVENTOR
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well, I dont see the image, and i loaded it to my gallery first.Hmmm?

well here is the link to the drawing
http://urad.net/forums/gallery/upload.php
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Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:29 am PostPost subject:
Yadaraf
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INVENTOR wrote:
o.k....Hello everyone.
Sooo Yarda and MADPROF........what diameter did you come up with for the rotor??? 144mm(5.6693) or 5.750 or 5.375(measurment from photo)
and are the rotor mags center line, in .375 from outer edge of rotor??

INVENTOR

We're using values from Al's measurements, specifically the rotor will be 144 mm in diameter. We're also using these drawing for a reference.

http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/MagneticMotors/OC_MPMM/JasonO/drawing.pdf

Quote:
Yarda...nice machining work on the base, i was going to do the same thing and make the stators adjustable.

As much as I'd like to take credit for the machining, it was done by MADPROF. Wink

Quote:
I was also thinking the same, as I read about the bearings..cleaning out the grease and replacing with light special oil.

I don't believe any lubricant is necessary for the first speed plateau. Cool

Cheers Smile
Yada ..
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Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:44 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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@INventor
Your image links aren't working for me, and I'd sure like to see what you've got.
The first link doesn't seem to have anything between the tags, and the second one seems not to be to your image at all but to your upload page.
Please try this: find your image, right click on it, select "copy image location", then paste that in between the [img] tags in your first post. Also check to see that "BBCode" is enabled in your Profile.
Let's see if that works.
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:37 pm PostPost subject:
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In that case....NICE WORK MADPROF. Laughing
Yadaraf, Yes I have already studied these drawings from Jason, yes only referance...too many differances...O.K. rotor at 144mm(5.669) dia...Now are you using jasons dimensions of 2.375 from center of rotor out to the inside edge of the rotor mags, or Al's dimensions, which I believe are at 13mm(.5118) from outer edge of rotor going in to the inside edge of rotor mags.

Hmm, Big differance when you start rounding everthing to common american fractions. Now if Al is using all mm dimensions and is from another country, than I would think that the material he used for making the stator mags and bearing housing(holder) would not be at 5/8(.625) dia., but maybe is at 16mm(.630).

Hmmm. Lets see, Als space gap between rotor and stator is at 5mm(.1969)that makes Al's dim. from center of rotor out to center of stator mags at....85mm(3.346),,Jason has 3.375,,,big differance....at this point, I would not even referance Jasons prints.
I will make up some new ones from Al' dimensions.
Al, I will see about uploading as per your instructions.

But now Al's magnets may all be mm sizes, this will also change spacing between the actual magnets themselves(from rotor mag to stator mag).
But didnt Jason say that Al has confimed that his prints are accurate?

O.K....something I must be missing with the whole story line here.
Were trying to copy or reverse engineer Als work here, but Al is here talking to us?? Is it that Al wants us to copy it, but cant give out any dimensions because of NDA agreement or something, or is he just testing and taunting us!?? Did Al get his dimensions from Overconfident?

Sorry it took so long to get back to everyone, crazy month of the year.
I will have new prints to you guys ASAP.

Oh, 1 more question...I saw Jason or someone had a video of one that had frictionless type bearing or something for there rotor,What did they use?
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:19 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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INVENTOR wrote:
well, I dont see the image, and i loaded it to my gallery first.Hmmm?

well here is the link to the drawing
http://urad.net/forums/gallery/upload.php


Welcome to the group Inventor Very Happy

The link to your drawing is here:
http://urad.net/forums/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=1

See my post in the URAD forum regarding the internet path to the actual document Wink

Cheers,

Harvey
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:25 pm PostPost subject:
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I think I got it now...one new drawing here. Now this drawing is the size that you would have to make the rotor, if you wanted (4)revs of stator to equal (1) rev of rotor. PDF file, not the other one, the other one you cant see the dimesion lines...I need to delete that one.

http://urad.net/forums/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=29

[img]
The image thing is still not working for me, but I believe I have the link correct now. I will figure it out eventualy.

More drawings coming soon.[/img]
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:27 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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INVENTOR wrote:

Did Al get his dimensions from Overconfident?


Overconfident thought Al's device was way too small to demonstrate the OC concept and suggested building a larger, 18" rotor with latches and pivots. Overconfident never even considered AGW stator rotation until Al mentioned it.

Of course, Overconfident's original designs have still never been constructed or analyzed. Once Al demonstrated unusual behavior, all efforts have been made attempting to replicate the behavior he demonstrated in his video. Overconfident's original ideas seem to have been forgotten by everyone except Overconfident.

However, Al's anomaly is the first concrete indication that there might actually be something to Overconfident's dream and ideas worthy of serious scientific study.

(Pardon the 3rd person narrative above.)
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:33 pm PostPost subject:
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[img]
http://urad.net/forums/gallery/albums/userpics/pmm_pdf004.pdf
[/img]
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Last edited by INVENTOR on Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:41 pm PostPost subject:
INVENTOR
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Quote:

suggested building a larger, 18" rotor

Any reason why 18" dia exactly??
If you went to 18", would you use 16 mags in the rotor??

Did your original design consist of a smaller rotor than 144mm with only 4 rotor mags??
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Last edited by INVENTOR on Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:47 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Like this:


.
(If you want to see how I did that, "quote" this post and look at the code.

Now, as to dimensions: You are quibbling about 0.030 inch difference in a measurement of about 3 inches. That is NOT a "big discrepancy". It may not be particularly accurate, but it's not bad--1 part in a hundred off. So 99 percent exact.

Many of the "dimensional discrepancies" are due, I believe, to the following chain of events: I make a measurement, say to 3 sig digs in Imperial. Somebody else converts that to metric but doesn't round properly and comes up with 5 or 6 digits in the answer. Somebody else then converts that back to Imperial and rounds--again, improperly. After a while, the discrepancies add up.

I give the best dimensions I can--it is entirely up to you as to what you do with them.

This is, or should be, a mini-lesson in measurement, rounding, and unit conversion.

I challenge any three people, using their own tools, to measure a complex object. I would be very very surprised if all their measurements agreed.

And I would be very very surprised if all these measurements of the device, turn out to be critical. The only critical ones I know of are the stator-rotor gap, the stator-rotor height relationship, and the positioning of the MKJDs. Everything else, IMHO, is just fiddling about. Once again, if you are getting AGW synch at the appropriate RPM, I am (relatively) sure that you have all necessary dimensional and strength parameters correct to reproduce what I have shown. If your device doesn't work, but does produce AGW at RPM, then there is certainly something else that you have omitted.
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:49 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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INVENTOR wrote:
[img]
http://urad.net/forums/gallery/albums/userpics/pmm_pdf004.pdf
[/img]


This is a link to a .pdf file, not an image.
Do you have "BBCode" turned on in your "Profile"?
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:07 pm PostPost subject:
INVENTOR
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Quote:

You are quibbling about 0.030 inch difference in a measurement of about 3 inches. That is NOT a "big discrepancy"

Thirty thousanths of an inch is big to me, im a machinist, not a carpenter.
I see what you are saying though. Especialy when we are talking about 3 or 4 places to the right of the decimel point, means nothing.
I did not mean to critisize you or your dimensioning.(i know my spelling sucks)
If I build this thing, I just want to start with the best possible dimentions, as no one seems to be able to get your results yet. I have paid close attention to the heights of the rotor, stator, and dampers.
Honestly, Thank you for the help.
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:11 pm PostPost subject:
INVENTOR
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Quote:

This is a link to a .pdf file, not an image.
Do you have "BBCode" turned on in your "Profile"?

Hmmm, yes pdf...so i need to copy the actual image not the file. o.k. i will try.
BBCode is enabled, yes.
Thanks

[img]

[/img]

http://urad.net/forums/gallery/albums/userpics/pmm_pdf004.pdf
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Last edited by INVENTOR on Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:15 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Inventor wrote:

O.K....something I must be missing with the whole story line here.
Were trying to copy or reverse engineer Als work here, but Al is here talking to us?? Is it that Al wants us to copy it, but cant give out any dimensions because of NDA agreement or something, or is he just testing and taunting us!?? Did Al get his dimensions from Overconfident?


Al has been very forthcoming with dimensions, materials and support. The accuracy of some of the measurements and the assumptions of some of the replicators has lead to a bit of discrepancy. Madprof and Yadaraf have been exercising due diligence in an attempt to accurately reproduce Als device.

Al is placed between a rock and a hard place here. On the one hand he simply does not believe that what he observes is by magnetic power alone and consequently he refrains from encouraging anyone from investing time, energy and funds into a project that cannot possibly work. Then, on the other hand he is faced with the reality that the true source of its operation is yet to be determined. Consequently, for those that take it upon themselves to replicate the device apart from any encouragement from him, he is willing to assist as time permits with what data he can produce. I empathize with his position here. There are many ideas and questions and desired tests to eliminate possibilites and a working man like Al can only do so much without it completely consuming his life. I think everyone here agrees that a scientific approach is the best approach.

Personally, I have enjoyed my experiments and freely share what I observe. I have no regrets for the time etc. I have put into the project. Of course I like puzzles and look foward to the solution to this one Very Happy.

Cheers,

Harvey
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:22 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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INVENTOR wrote:
Quote:

This is a link to a .pdf file, not an image.
Do you have "BBCode" turned on in your "Profile"?

Hmmm, yes pdf...so i need to copy the actual image not the file. o.k. i will try.
BBCode is enabled, yes.
Thanks

[img]

[/img]

http://urad.net/forums/gallery/albums/userpics/pmm_pdf004.pdf




There we go, its .../userpics/pmm3003.jpg inside the img tags. You can quote this post to see how I did it.
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:26 pm PostPost subject:
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fdgg35
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:32 pm PostPost subject:
INVENTOR
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Quote:




INVENTOR wrote:
Quote:

This is a link to a .pdf file, not an image.
Do you have "BBCode" turned on in your "Profile"?


Hmmm, yes pdf...so i need to copy the actual image not the file. o.k. i will try.
BBCode is enabled, yes.
Thanks

[img]

[/img]

http://urad.net/forums/gallery/albums/userpics/pmm_pdf004.pdf




There we go, its .../userpics/pmm3003.jpg inside the img tags. You can quote this post to see how I did it.
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Hmmm, i am quoting this post but still dont notice anything...i see the quote brackets.Hmmm
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:33 pm PostPost subject:
INVENTOR
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[img]/userpics/pmm_pdf004.pdf[/img]

I still dont see any thing??

delete the jpeg file, use the pdf file, the jpeg you can not see the dimension lines.

Boy I thought the OC MPMM was driving me crazy. hehehehe

[img]http://urad.net/forums/gallery/albums/userpics/pmm_pdf004.pdf[/img]
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Last edited by INVENTOR on Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:36 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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OK, I had a look at the .pdf drawing. It's OK as far as it goes. First, it looks like you are trying to get the ratio of the circumferences to get to that 4-1 ratio. That's not necessary, nor is it even advisable, IMHO, as if you achieve a perfect 4-1 ratio of circumferences, the stator magnets won't have that "washing machine agitation" at certain RPMS which I think may be important. The 4-1 rotation ratio is actually set by the 4 pairs of rotor magnets. If you had 8 pairs, or 6 pairs, you'd get 8-1 or 6-1 rotation rate ratios, even if the circumferences don't work out exactly.
Second, you've omitted the slots for the rotor magnets. These may be necessary for several reasons. It may be necessary to move the rotor magnets a bit sideways from their strict "center" positions. There may be some aerodynamic effects of the slots.

The fixed screw for a shaft, and bearings in the rotor, was the first configuration tried, in at least three different units. It isn't accurate enough to keep the rotor from wobbling. (Wobble?) The spindle arrangement is much better, and those bearings in that spindle are Quite Fine. It is a capstan drive from a professional 1/2 inch video deck, after all.

(Thanks, Harvey...)
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:37 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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INVENTOR wrote:
Quote:

suggested building a larger, 18" rotor

Any reason why 18" dia exactly??
If you went to 18", would you use 16 mags in the rotor??

Did your original design consist of a smaller rotor than 144mm with only 4 rotor mags??


My original designs were just conceptual graphic animations, no dimensions were given. There were 5 stators in the first case and 13 stators in the second. Both had 8 rotor magnets. Both also had something I call latches, and I also suggested the use of pivots.

When I first saw Al's finished rotor, it just didn't look right, too small for the magnets involved. So I got out the magnets and did some hands-on tabletop testing. I believe the stators should be spaced for minimum magnetic interaction with each other. My tests showed this to be about 4 inches or so. That's where the 18" rotor size came from, 13 stators x 4.5" = 58.5" circumference (1/2" magnet diameter + 4" space between magnets) .

Don't forget the latches and pivots, though. Al's device may not need them, but my original concept would not have a chance without them.

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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:39 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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I can do it too, I wonder why you can't?
.
.

.
.
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:45 pm PostPost subject:
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Quote:

OK, I had a look at the .pdf drawing. It's OK as far as it goes. First, it looks like you are trying to get the ratio of the circumferences to get to that 4-1 ratio. That's not necessary, nor is it even advisable, IMHO, as if you achieve a perfect 4-1 ratio of circumferences, the stator magnets won't have that "washing machine agitation" at certain RPMS which I think may be important. The 4-1 rotation ratio is actually set by the 4 pairs of rotor magnets. If you had 8 pairs, or 6 pairs, you'd get 8-1 or 6-1 rotation rate ratios, even if the circumferences don't work out exactly.
Second, you've omitted the slots for the rotor magnets. These may be necessary for several reasons. It may be necessary to move the rotor magnets a bit sideways from their strict "center" positions. There may be some aerodynamic effects of the slots.

I was thinking that the washing machine agitation was caused by an uneven # of stator positions(13), I see what you are saying though.
I just left the slots out of the drawing for now. I will work on a new set of more complete drawings next.
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:55 pm PostPost subject:
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Quote:

I believe the stators should be spaced for minimum magnetic interaction with each other.

Thanks OC.
Hmmm, Interesting concept.
I understand your math for the 18". also interesting.
I remember seeing drawings of the latch idea, but I dont remember where it was.
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:33 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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INVENTOR wrote:

I remember seeing drawings of the latch idea, but I dont remember where it was.


Most of my earlier graphics is at: http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/

My initial graphics provider appears to have gone belly-up.
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:40 pm PostPost subject:
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Quote:

I remember seeing drawings of the latch idea, but I dont remember where it was.
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Last edited by Harvey on Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:51 pm PostPost subject:
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Harvey wrote:
Quote:

I remember seeing drawings of the latch idea, but I dont remember where it was.
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(From this page http://www.ospmm.com/whipmag/ )


That's actually the pivot. My proposed latch was at:
http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/oc/OC13RotatingMagnetDetail.GIF
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Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:08 am PostPost subject:
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Ahhh, thanks guys for details of latch design.

Here is new print of rotor only.(let me know what you guys think of it.)

http://urad.net/forums/gallery/albums/userpics/pmm3_MM_pdf001.pdf

I will make more drawings of other parts, and include side view of heights of parts.

Now I will have to look for info I saw on dampers. I have only ruff notes on heights, they were a little difficult to understand, i will make a print.

Are dampers set on same bolt circle as stators??

If I build this, and I get some sort of results.......I will be willing to make all sorts of variations, like 18" rotor and latches.

Put some fins on the rotor and make it fly!

[img]
[/img]

Hmmm still nothing, i believe i understand what you mean about the image.
I tried to high light the image and right click and copy and paste between img tags... instead of high lighting the link to the image, but still nothing or it wont give an option to paste after I select copy from highting image. Hmmm, BBcode is ON. HTML is off, does that matter?
Tooo many puzzles..AAAHHggrrrIIIILOOVVVEIT!!

I think we all like a good chalenge here.(odviously)
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