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Al, WhipMag, and Steorn: My POV

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Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:47 pm PostPost subject: Al, WhipMag, and Steorn: My POV
toiz
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I took some time the past couple of weeks to read back through the WhipMag threads on Steorn.

Let me start off by saying Al has been very consistent all along and he has answered most of the pertinent questions. He has also stated that he did not knowingly setup a power source of any kind to drive the WhipMag. I, for one, appreciate his level headed reasoning skills and scientific approach.

Second, this could be a hoax, but I don't believe that it is. I believe Al is being genuine. What he has shown is very interesting, but not necessarily, or even likely, extraordinary. As Al has stated, there is very little 'we', as in everyone other than AL, can know about the WhipMag from what we have seen or read on the Internet.

I am interested in Al's theory of where the energy is being stored or how it is being extracted from the surrounding environment. The slow decay in RPM's suggests stored energy to me, but what do I know really?

Just a couple of additional comments on the WhipMag. GW locking isn't anything new and is commonly used in industrial applications. AGW locking is an interesting effect, but really isn't extraordinary.

One point I do not agree with Al on is the further study of OC's original concept. It's based on a dream, not physical concepts that suggest energy could be extracted from such a system. At least Steorn offered a physical effect and claim they designing systems to take advantage of it (more on that below). I'm not sure why Al continues to support this, it seems contradictory to his line of thinking on all other levels.

Regarding Steorn ... what a mess, huh? Where to even start? I'll skip all the BS. I really just want to make a few comments on their claim. I consider myself open-minded and I am willing to challenge accepted scientific beliefs if the evidence and data support it, which we have none of from Steorn.

From the research I have done, magetic viscosity does not appear to be very well understood, but does indeed exist. I have run numerous models to try to show how magnetic viscosity could produce an energy gain, but I always find a balance of energy gain and loss (amazing right?).

In my models, I have always assumed that domain alignment and relaxing occurs only when a magnetic field is applied to a permanent magnet. The only way I can see for a possible energy gain is if the domain alignment/relaxing displayed some type of 'momentum' and continued to align/relax to magnetic field even after it has been removed.

Using a scientific approach, we should be able to run a series of tests and determine if there's any validity to Steorn's claim. I'm a little surprised someone hasn't already (or maybe they have and we're just not aware of it).
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Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:08 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Hi Toiz,

Thanx for the insights, all thoughts are appreciated.

toiz wrote:

The only way I can see for a possible energy gain is if the domain alignment/relaxing displayed some type of 'momentum' and continued to align/relax to magnetic field even after it has been removed.


There are two things to consider here. The BH curve, and the atomic interactions during a standard MRI scan. In both cases you will find the type of 'momentum' you are referring to.

Cool
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Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:02 am PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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Harvey wrote:
There are two things to consider here. The BH curve, and the atomic interactions during a standard MRI scan. In both cases you will find the type of 'momentum' you are referring to.


No, they are not.

Both are latency effects, but (to keep things simple) the ball is always running down-hill. The 'momentum' effect Toiz is referring to would have the ball continue to run up-hill for some time. There is no such effect in EM, because it would break the conservation laws.

BTW, the latency effects are loss mechanisms.
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Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:24 am PostPost subject:
Wunderland
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Hi toiz,
I am just reading a book called "Festkoerper" / Bergmann Schaefer.
ISBN 3 11 012605 2
Interesting stuff inside there.
"
8.7.4.2 Irreversible Nachwirkung
Bei der irreversieblen Nachwirkung kommt die zeitliche Veraenderung der magnetischen Eigenschaften durch die thermisch aktivierte Bewegung von Bloch-Waenden im statistischen Potentialgebirge zustande.
Bloch-Waende, dies sich knapp unterhalb eines Kraftmaximums befinden, erfahren durch thermische Fluktraktion des Spinsystems innerhalb der anliegenden Domaenen eine fluktuierende Kraft, die mit einer gewissen Wahrscheinlichkeit einen irreversieblen Barkhausen-Sprung der Bloch-Wand zum benachbarten Kraftmaximum hervorrufen kann..... "

Very complicated - i cannot translate this correctly.
But it seems like thermal energy cold be translated into magnetic energy in the case of your "magnetic viscosity".

If this is the case, then:

- the ambient temperature of the device is important
(higher temperatures are better)
- the magnets will cool down in Al's motor.

It is not a simple thing to replicate this effect, because:
- There exist different kinds of neodym magnets
- There exist different ways of magnetisation
Structures inside the Nd magnets seems to be difficult.
- Al has clamped his magnets inside the rotor.
This cold cause magnetostriction and affect the magnetic structure, too.

However, I will aso perform some experiments and I will equip a rotor magnet with a sensor coil. But the adaption to the scope is a little bit problematic.

I am waiting for some more magnets, too (N35 rotor magnets).

Therefore, it will take a little bit more time (days, weeks, ...), before I will have some results.
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Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:02 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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@Wunderland

Thermal noise could hike a Bloch-wall into a new position, increasing the magnetic field slightly. To maintain entropy balance, the temperature can drop. Comparable to thermal noise pushing electrons across a diode barrier. Both mechanisms are interesting on quantum scale but cannot be applied to produce useful energy (that would conflict with the second law of thermodynamics).

A practical application of the temperature-magnetism Nachwirkung is magnetic cooling using the Magnetocaloric effect. Using materials like gadolinium it could become a more efficient cooling solution than the traditional mechanical ones.

Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_refrigeration

If Al's machine would produce useful work and cool down the magnets while doing so, it would not break the first law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy), but it would still break the second one (entropy growth). Which makes this theory a no-go.

I'm also intrigued how that machine was powered. But remember the best magicians never explain their tricks!
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Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:31 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Ping1400 wrote:
Harvey wrote:
There are two things to consider here. The BH curve, and the atomic interactions during a standard MRI scan. In both cases you will find the type of 'momentum' you are referring to.


No, they are not.

Both are latency effects, but (to keep things simple) the ball is always running down-hill. The 'momentum' effect Toiz is referring to would have the ball continue to run up-hill for some time. There is no such effect in EM, because it would break the conservation laws.

BTW, the latency effects are loss mechanisms.


They are not what?

To be absolutely clear on the matter - the domain alignment continues in magnatized materials after the H field is removed and delays in the alignment continue to align other domains after the field is removed.

In an MRI, diamagnetic alignment is a physical process involving the reorientation of atoms, it is the hysteresis of these structures that releases measureable energy after the field is removed. Mass is moved and momentum is present.
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Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:54 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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Harvey wrote:

In an MRI, diamagnetic alignment is a physical process involving the reorientation of atoms, it is the hysteresis of these structures that releases measureable energy after the field is removed. Mass is moved and momentum is present.


Yep. The potential energy that is stored in the diamagnetic alignment is released by decreasing the alignment when the external field is removed. The alignment will not continue to build up (as result of some 'magnetic momentum' effect, remembering the external field that used to be there). That would disrupt the energy conservation balance, as Toiz explained.
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Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:55 pm PostPost subject:
Wunderland
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@Ping1400
Thank you for your post - you will surely have a large knowledge about the processes inside the magnet.
Please consider my following opinion to this:

The Bloch-wall movement caused in this case by the thermal noise, magnons or what ever, is an irreversible movement.
This means, thermal noise did not move the Bloch-wall back again.
Therefore, there exist a kind of rectifiering and a million of Bloch-wall movements could increase the magnetic field significant.
==> The quantum effect will become visible for us!

What du you think about that?

The question:
Will this effect take place AFTER the external field disappeared again?

In the ferromagnetic, there are still many questions for the scientist.
Therefore, we never knew, where the energy really comes from. Just talking about the second law of thermodynamics is not very productive in this case.

PS: The cooling down could be the reason, why Al's motor stops after a while and spins again after it was warmed up
Wink
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Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:19 pm PostPost subject:
Nentin
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I do not remember Al saying that the device stops after a while. To my best knowledge Al said it ran all night for over 7 hours and he stopped in when he got up.
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Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:44 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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Wunderland wrote:
In the ferromagnetic, there are still many questions for the scientist. Therefore, we never knew, where the energy really comes from. Just talking about the second law of thermodynamics is not very productive in this case.


I'm not a scientist. As engineer I'm not interested in questions of nature, just in theories that tell me how real machines work. Scientists need to be skeptical, I don't have to. And the second law of thermodynamics is very productive in this case. Because it explains how real machines work. And any system that produces useful energy by cooling down the ambient environment is conflicting the second law. Therefor it cannot be build.

Wunderland wrote:
you will surely have a large knowledge about the processes inside the magnet.


No.

Wunderland wrote:
The Bloch-wall movement caused in this case by the thermal noise, magnons or what ever, is an irreversible movement.
This means, thermal noise did not move the Bloch-wall back again.
Therefore, there exist a kind of rectifiering and a million of Bloch-wall movements could increase the magnetic field significant.


If so, then the irreversible movement in the Bloch-wall just resulted in a little increase of the universe entropy. Which is the meaning of life.

Cheers!
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