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The Alsetalokin Power Cycle.

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Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:17 pm PostPost subject: The Alsetalokin Power Cycle.
Frank
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As has been pointed out elsewhere the essence of a power cycle is a slow leg and a fast leg, in other words a quasi-isothermal leg and a quasi-adiabatic leg.

We know from the so-called phenomena of "magnetic viscosity" that different rates of interaction of the H and B fields lead to different BH loops. Now as shown from the following diagram the interaction between the rotor B field and the Stator H field is fast incoming and slow outgoing.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/RotorStatorinteraction.jpg

Think Doppler. (I seem to remember that Harvey has written something along these lines).

So we have the two essential ingredients for a power cycle around part of the BH loop.

I have represented this diagrammatically before but it does no harm to repeat it.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/VesicaPisces.jpg

This shows a continuum between the low slope quasi-isothermal section and the high slope quasi-adiabatic section for each half of the vesica pisces shape.

I must say, I cannot understand why Al was so insistent that there was no free lunch. There clearly is. :bigsmile:
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Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:20 am PostPost subject:
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Well, it's not exactly a vesica pices, the intersection of two circles providing a code of recognition for persecuted early Christians; but, it's darn close. It would probably hold up the roof of a cathedral.

Terry
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Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:58 am PostPost subject:
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turtles wrote:
Well, it's not exactly a vesica pices, the intersection of two circles providing a code of recognition for persecuted early Christians; but, it's darn close. It would probably hold up the roof of a cathedral.

Terry

Quite so. The reason I referred to it as such is because it reminded me of the water Vesica Pisces on Professor Chaplin's website.

The square-root(3) term is related to the Vesica Pisces, being the ratio of the long to short diameter of intersecting expanded icosahedral water clusters (the short diameter being the distance between the centres of neighboring dodecaherda and the long diameter associated with a plane of water molecules between the two pentameric boxes (Figure 3h) joining them.
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Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:04 pm PostPost subject:
Mr.Entropy
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Hi Frank,

In every physical scenario that I can imagine, magnetic viscosity is a loss mechanism.

If you bring magnets together in attraction, a delay in magnetization would cause you to extract less energy than you otherwise would. When you pull them apart, a delay in demagnetization would cause you to spend more energy than you otherwise would. If you bring them together in repulsion, any delay again costs you more work. If you let them push each other apart, any delay means you get less work out.

In a similar way, hysteresis is always a loss mechanism, as far as I can see, and any time you traverse your fish in the direction that the arrows indicate, you will lose energy.

So... Is it possible for you to describe more precisely exactly what kind of magnetic interaction you think will turn these effects into producers of energy rather than consumers?

Thanks,

Mr. Entropy
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Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:58 pm PostPost subject:
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Mr.Entropy wrote:
Hi Frank,

In every physical scenario that I can imagine, magnetic viscosity is a loss mechanism.

If you bring magnets together in attraction, a delay in magnetization would cause you to extract less energy than you otherwise would. When you pull them apart, a delay in demagnetization would cause you to spend more energy than you otherwise would. If you bring them together in repulsion, any delay again costs you more work. If you let them push each other apart, any delay means you get less work out.

In a similar way, hysteresis is always a loss mechanism, as far as I can see, and any time you traverse your fish in the direction that the arrows indicate, you will lose energy.

So... Is it possible for you to describe more precisely exactly what kind of magnetic interaction you think will turn these effects into producers of energy rather than consumers?

Thanks,

Mr. Entropy


I’m not a physicist so take my question with a grain of salt. I am merely just bating thoughts around. Anyway based off your examples, this is a linear interaction, but what about theta interactions? There is not enough information to rule one over the other. this is all an wide open book yet to be concluded as to what really happens. It's not known exactly how a magnetic field can cause motive force via the magnetic field(s). We can see the field, and feel its effects, but how it actually works beyond a shallow definition of "it repels" or "it attracts".

Another question is how is AGW works. It has been proven by many that it happens.
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Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:28 pm PostPost subject:
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Mr.Entropy wrote:
Hi Frank,

In every physical scenario that I can imagine, magnetic viscosity is a loss mechanism.


The trouble is that viscosity is a misnomer. What you have as Rutherford's original research shows is a different power law for different speeds of increase in environmental pressure (H field).

Now this is functionally the same as a PV diagram where you have different power laws for isothermal and adiabatic compression and expansion. If you go around an area one way on a PV diagram you have a refrigeration cycle. If you go round it the other you have a power cycle.

The magnetic refrigeration cycle is not in question. The power cycle is the other half of the same coin.

I fear that the intellectual effort to follow each step in the argument is too much for most people. This is why I have attended the progress of Steorn and now Alsetalokin so closely. It is only when people see energy being mined from the Gamma-atmosphere that they are going to make the necessary effort to understand what is going on.

Alexander the Great once asked the mathematician Menaechmus for a crash course in geometry, he got the famous reply “There is no royal road to mathematics". There is no royal road to Iterative Hierarchical Mechanics either. If you want to understand what I'm talking about you have to follow the same long road I took.

If I'm right energy will one day be mined from the Gamma-atmosphere.
.. "If you're right the Germans will be in London by the summer." .. Rolling Eyes


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Fri May 30, 2008 10:30 pm PostPost subject:
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I'm beginning to get the hang of the Alsetalokin Effect's inner workings and understand exactly how the WhipMag gets its energy from its WhipMag cycle.

What it essentially comes down to is this.

The AGW phase is driving the magnets around the opposite Bs-Br cycle to the GW phase. Lets call the AGW phase the clockwise cycle and the GW the widdershins cycle. The clockwise cycle is the power cycle which draws energy from the environment and the widdershins cycle is the cycle that loses energy to the environment.

The AGW cycle is a repulsion cycle North vs North, South vs South. The GW cycle is an attraction cycle North vs South, South vs North.

In the AGW cycle the poles slow down as they approach and speed up as they retreat so we have slow in fast out. Because of the differences in speed coming in and going out the magnets are on different slopes on the BH diagram. They move from one slope to another.

In the GW cycle on the other hand we the magnets speed up as they approach and slow down as they retreat. So we have fast in, slow out. This is why the complete cycles are in opposite directions on the Bs-Br diagram.

The trick to understanding what it going on is to recognise that one magnet is the the other magnet's H field and vice versa. The stator magnets are driving the rotor magnets around in the way the the H field drives the B field in the B-H diagram and, likewise the rotor magnets are driving the stator magnets also in the way that the H field drives the B field in the B-H diagram.

So we have two sets of change going on simultaneously. Representing this diagrammatically so that it's perfectly clear what's happening is tricky and will take me some time to get my head around.

But I didn't want to be a spoilsport and hog all the development to myself so if anyone wants to beat me to it, be my guest. Very Happy
Mind you, Harvey's probably the only member who will be able to dimly see through a glass darkly what I can now see rather clearly.

Interestingly enough the same set of relationships arises in stress-strain diagrams. Which variable is viewed as stress and which strain is arbitrary. But the situation is much clearer in the BH situation since both are fields and both are in the same dimensions of field strength.
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Fri May 30, 2008 10:52 pm PostPost subject:
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Frank wrote:

...
In the AGW cycle the poles slow down as they approach and speed up as they retreat so we have slow in fast out. Because of the differences in speed coming in and going out the magnets are on different slopes on the BH diagram. They move from one slope to another.

In the GW cycle on the other hand we the magnets speed up as they approach and slow down as they retreat. So we have fast in, slow out. This is why the complete cycles are in opposite directions on the Bs-Br diagram.

The trick to understanding what it going on is to recognise that one magnet is the the other magnet's H field and vice versa. The stator magnets are driving the rotor magnets around in the way the the H field drives the B field in the B-H diagram and, likewise the rotor magnets are driving the stator magnets also in the way that the H field drives the B field in the B-H diagram.

...

Mind you, Harvey's probably the only member who will be able to dimly see through a glass darkly what I can now see rather clearly.
...


Frank, if you will (re)read the Overconfident theory on the Steorn site, you will see that this is very close to what I was saying a year ago about Orbo and its viscous interactions. But I'm afraid I don't see WhipMag in quite the same light.

http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=58463

I also made some related remarks in the FAQ thread, which almost nobody has bothered to comment on:

http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59654

I'm afraid I still don't see the relationships to your stress-strain and Gamma atmosphere analogies.

OC
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Fri May 30, 2008 11:04 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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You will. Hopefully. Wink
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Fri May 30, 2008 11:32 pm PostPost subject:
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I don't know if us plain folks is smart enough, Frank...maybe only invisible white rabbits can see, as through a glass darkly...
But certainly it's easier for a white rabbit to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a viscous man to enter the gates of Heaven....

Insomnia in Christo?
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Sat May 31, 2008 4:01 am PostPost subject:
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I've always viewed the BH relationship as one between a nonmagnatized material's susceptibility and a magnetic field's flux density. If we imagine then, that a magnetized NeFeB alloy of say N42 can be further magnetized the we are faced with the question as to whether or not the flux is available for such an event. Assuming the theoretical boundry for the NeFeB material is N52 even though it has been previously magnetized in the laboratory at a lower density we must ask ourselves if the envronment would support further magnetization of the material.

Suppose we place the N42 in an H field of sufficient density to cause N52 alignment. What will we see in the space surrounding the N42? Will it appear transparent to the H field or will the flux be 'looking through the glass darkly'? The saturation of the material has a lot to do with its molecular domains. The molecular domains have a lot to do with the annealing of the alloy. We will find that the NeFeB material is resistant to changes in these domains for temperatures below Curie Point.

Even if higher density H zones were present of sufficient strength and duration to cause alteration to the B fields it would be a matter of stress or strain on the crystal structure with near immediate hysteresis. An interesting side effect of this would be the ringing caused by a sudden H collapse and the position in space-time relative to other fields.

It is possible (although far-fetched) that the boundries between domains can gap molecularly resulting in Casimir energy introduction during these stress / strain periods.

As far as AGW being a gain mech. and GW being a loss mech. we are faced with a 2:1 issue are we not? As lostcauses points out - the gains of AGW must be quite significant to overcome all these losses in the system.

And after running Korkskrews 1.6A for nearly 12 hours now, I am really interested in how this can even remotely be true.
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Sat May 31, 2008 4:17 am PostPost subject:
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alsetalokin wrote:
I don't know if us plain folks is smart enough, Frank...maybe only invisible white rabbits can see, as through a glass darkly...
But certainly it's easier for a white rabbit to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a viscous man to enter the gates of Heaven....

Insomnia in Christo?


LOL, let's see...if a camel is 26 hands high...translating to meters...or foots..rabbit ears up or flopped...hmmm...but then there is the hump - or humps...or rabbit standing or on all fours....military needle or sewing needle-- oh bother, I give up.

I think its beasier to just be a plane folk. Mr. Green

Funny, I don't know how my brain saw "Insurance, Mutual of Omaha's Chrysalis" in his Sig. Shocked
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Sat May 31, 2008 7:30 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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Harvey wrote:

...

As far as AGW being a gain mech. and GW being a loss mech. we are faced with a 2:1 issue are we not? As lostcauses points out - the gains of AGW must be quite significant to overcome all these losses in the system.

Absolutely correct. For example, with streamline flow you have to reach a critical velocity before the flow becomes turbulent. With a flume you have to reach a critical velocity before the smooth flow generates a hydraulic jump and the little whorls below the threshold of perception generate one big whorl above that threshold.

But the whole point of the Alsetalokin demonstration is that this is precisely what he has managed to do, although it appears he doesn't realise it yet. But then that's par for the course, isn't it. Innovators often fail to see the full the full implications of their work.
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Sat May 31, 2008 6:46 pm PostPost subject:
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More ideas. Good luck with them. If you are gong with the b bit then you will have take the account the material the rotor magnets are mounted in.

Good luck with that.
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:58 pm PostPost subject:
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The above two graphs show the essential features of the AGW and GW cycles of the WhipMag.

The Brotor ordinate is effectively the stator's H field. The graph is plotted in the Cornell fashion, H as y axis and B as x axis, rather than in the more traditional manner of B as y axis and H as x axis. I find this plot easier to deal with since energy


Thus areas between legs of the cycles and the x axis (Bstator axis) measure energy. By inspection it can be seen that the clockwise AGW cycle results in net energy gain (area under the ascending legs minus area under the descending legs) and the GW widdershins cycle results in a net energy loss (area under the ascending legs minus area under the descending legs).

The difference in slope of the ingoing and outgoing legs is a manifestation of the fact that the rate of change of the Bstator field is dependent on the rate of change of the Brotor field, the faster the stator moves relative to the rotor, the steeper the slope will be. How much steeper will depend on the stators degree of magnetisation.

This dependence on rate of change is a universal phenomena at all scales of a material. In the case of a stress strain curve for example is is called plasticity or for very slow deformations, creep. In the case of magnets it has been termed viscosity, a misleading name in my opinion.

Since AGW and GW represent an energy gain and an energy loss it follows that the rundown time for AGW must be longer than the rundown time for GW. It also follows that the bigger the differential between these times the nearer one is to getting a power gain sufficient to overcome the losses due to friction, drag, etc.
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:06 pm PostPost subject:
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In the light of the above, does anyone know what the biggest differential achieved so far is, i.e. the biggest relative difference in run down time between AGW and GW.
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:18 pm PostPost subject:
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Frank wrote:
In the light of the above, does anyone know what the biggest differential achieved so far is, i.e. the biggest relative difference in run down time between AGW and GW.

Frank,

Nice analysis. I'm still adding instrumentation to the rig I have, so I have no data yet.

Cheers Smile
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:32 pm PostPost subject:
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Frank wrote:
In the light of the above, does anyone know what the biggest differential achieved so far is, i.e. the biggest relative difference in run down time between AGW and GW.


Best AGW/GW ratio I know of so far has been 7 hours/3 minutes.

I like your analysis but still disagree on a couple things. The major thing is, I don't think this applies to WhipMag. Possibly Orbo, if there is such a thing.
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Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:43 pm PostPost subject:
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To be accurate you will need matching L. This means the ratio beween mass and RPM must be identical for each device tested. Thus your rundown times will be a composite of all losses. Frictional drag, magnetic drag, viscous (air) drag and even electromagnetic/electrostatic drag. All of which will be different for each test, let alone each device.

Obviously, accurate data and averages are mandatory in the analysis. The more tests we have from a larger variety of devices the easier it will be to spot functional dependencies. Some are obvious, like loose bearings as opposed grease packed, 1/4" diameter cylinder rotor magnets as opposed to 3" diameter discs etc. But it is the subtlties that mask the key ingredients.

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Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:43 am PostPost subject:
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The analysis given in my previous post implies that AGR mode must always give a longer run down time than GW mode. This is falsifiable.

In the "Please confirm" thread toiz poses the question:

"Is it true that in AGW the overall loses of the Whipmag decrease? Are researchers seeing longer run down times with a stator in AGW?"

..... and Alsetalokin answers:

"Yes that is true, as opposed to GW ... "

This is consistent with power being generated in AGW and lost in GW mode.

I believe I have also read somewhere that the WhipMag runs more smoothly in AGW mode than in GW mode. Again this is what might be expected if the WhipMag is generating power in the AGW mode. An audio recording of the two modes might provide some useful data on this point.
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:47 am PostPost subject:
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Frank think of it as a simple point of pull to and then pull away. If the force is equal in both directions there is no gain. The reason it is mostly considered conservative in form.

The Agw cycle is such the pull to point is broke with a equalizing push on the like pole position.

If such is done to were the pull against is less than the pull to, you get a gain: albeit it is a small one.
This is nothing fancy. You could do your parallelograms to the normal force of push pull with magnets (potential to kinetic)

If they are parallel LOL there is no gain. How what we see in Al,s situation of a speeding up effect is dependent on keeping the thing to a gain, with out pushing rotor and stator out of sync.
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:09 pm PostPost subject:
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Since some people may be having difficulty in understanding that an area enclosed circling around it one way in an HB diagram represents energy gained and an area enclosed circling around it the other represents energy lost, I have drawn these two figures below. As you can see by inspection the area within the loop represents the energy gained in the case of AGW and the energy lost in the case of GW





If you think about it, the difference between AGR and GW is the anomaly that Steorn must have discovered. Not having a brilliant experimentalist like Alsetalokin however, they haven't yet been able to bring it to the point of a convincing demonstration. Nor, it would appear, have they been able to develop a believable explanation of how and why it works. If they had they wouldn't have made fools of themselves with tee shirts reading CEO vs CoE, a motto even more stupid than the mantra TANSTAAFL ("There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"). Wink
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:36 pm PostPost subject:
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Frank,

Great job on the graphs. You might be correct about Steorn. Rolling Eyes

Cheers Smile
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:05 pm PostPost subject:
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frank wrote:

If you think about it, the difference between AGR and GW is the anomaly that Steorn must have discovered. Not having a brilliant experimentalist like Alsetalokin however, they haven't yet been able to bring it to the point of a convincing demonstration.


If this were true I doubt Al would have such a dislike for their activities surrounding the 'newly discovered technology'. Instead, Al sees their actions as a form of plagiarism of lthe minato wheel and views his device as an artifact.

Because there seems to be a separation between the two I do wonder what similarities truly exist, if any.

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Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:23 pm PostPost subject:
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@Frank,

I have no aregument with your idea as it might relate to Orbo (well a nitpick, I don't think the arrows ever reverse direction like you illustrate. I think the minor loop gets pushed up into the first quadrant and that due to reversible effects (time is not plotted in your graph), there is a viscous return to remanence during which increased forces can be utilized for a potential gain).

I still disagree this has anything to do with WhipMag.

Also, you might want to get your acronyms correct. It's TANSTAAFL, just ask wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL

OC
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:54 pm PostPost subject:
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overconfident wrote:
@Frank,

I have no argument with your idea as it might relate to Orbo (well a nitpick, I don't think the arrows ever reverse direction like you illustrate. I think the minor loop gets pushed up into the first quadrant and that due to reversible effects (time is not plotted in your graph), there is a viscous return to remanence during which increased forces can be utilized for a potential gain).

I still disagree this has anything to do with WhipMag.

Also, you might want to get your acronyms correct. It's TANSTAAFL, just ask wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL

OC

Thanks for the acronym correction. I've made the necessary edit. I must confess I didn't realise there was an orthodox version of TANSTAAFL. The Wiki article was very interesting on this.

Your view that my post has nothing to do with the WhipMag is noted. Smile
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:06 pm PostPost subject:
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Frank wrote:

Your view that my post has nothing to do with the WhipMag is noted. :)


You might also note, I don't think the potential gain can be leveraged unless you take the time dimension into account. The old "slow in/fast out" is important. It takes time to build the energy potential and extraction should take place faster than it decreases back to a "normal" level.
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:27 pm PostPost subject:
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Harvey wrote:
frank wrote:

If you think about it, the difference between AGR and GW is the anomaly that Steorn must have discovered. Not having a brilliant experimentalist like Alsetalokin however, they haven't yet been able to bring it to the point of a convincing demonstration.


If this were true I doubt Al would have such a dislike for their activities surrounding the 'newly discovered technology'. Instead, Al sees their actions as a form of plagiarism of the Minato wheel and views his device as an artifact.

Because there seems to be a separation between the two I do wonder what similarities truly exist, if any.

Cool


Frankly, I think that thing they showed in July has to be a deception. After all, there was some talk about confusing people with redundant components in the SPUD. I think they went the whole hog. Why else would they discourage people from the main forum from going to London by deliberately misleading them as to the time and the location. Crank never got to London; an unfortunate co-incidence, no doubt.

Also, if the London demo was as grossly incompetent as it appeared then I would have expected Steorn to implode. It hasn't. On the contrary, we see McCarthy photographed with top government officers.

If your analysis of Al's psychological state of mind is anywhere near correct then his opinion of Steorn ain't of much significance, is it.
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:40 pm PostPost subject:
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overconfident wrote:
Frank wrote:

Your view that my post has nothing to do with the WhipMag is noted. Smile


You might also note, I don't think the potential gain can be leveraged unless you take the time dimension into account. The old "slow in/fast out" is important. It takes time to build the energy potential and extraction should take place faster than it decreases back to a "normal" level.

The graphs I drew do take the "time dimension" as you put it, into account. The legs of different slope are from hysteresis diagrams of different generation rates. I would have thought that was clear enough.
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Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:16 pm PostPost subject:
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Frank wrote:
overconfident wrote:
Frank wrote:

Your view that my post has nothing to do with the WhipMag is noted. :)


You might also note, I don't think the potential gain can be leveraged unless you take the time dimension into account. The old "slow in/fast out" is important. It takes time to build the energy potential and extraction should take place faster than it decreases back to a "normal" level.

The graphs I drew do take the "time dimension" as you put it, into account. The legs of different slope are from hysteresis diagrams of different generation rates. I would have thought that was clear enough.


If you will actually do a 3D plot and take a 2D projection from X/Y, you will see that it looks nothing like what you show, at least not on the XY axes. There might be something like that if you take some oblique angle which includes the Z axis.
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