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Rotor magnets' alignment

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Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:22 am PostPost subject: Rotor magnets' alignment
Yirkha
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Here is the top-view of original rig's rotor, with highlighted magnets' placement wrt their symmetry. Their positions definitely don't seem to be regular, even though there surely is some error introduced by the angle at which the photo was taken and by my fast and dirty drawing.

Maybe I should have made another set of lines to mark the center of each of the eight sides, to see in which direction each magnet is displaced more easily.

But all this might not be important at all, iirc the rig is able to run in both directions. On the second thought, there seems to be four magnets shifted clockwise (imho 1.5, 3, 4.5 and 6 "hours" on the imaginary clock face) and four magnets shifted widdershins (the other four), so it would be somehow balanced anyway.

What do you think?
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:18 pm PostPost subject:
MeggerMan
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What drawing?

I think I know what you are talking about, on the strobed clip, as I measured the distance between rotor magnet pairs in the vertical segment of rotation and found they were all differently spaced.

Regards
Rob
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:37 pm PostPost subject:
Yirkha
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MeggerMan wrote:
What drawing?
The drawing you can see if you click the link in the OP.
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:37 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@Yirkha,

I really think the rotor magnet positions is a red herring. I'm leaning more towards the bearings as the primary source of the anomaly. I think the bearings are actually providing a "braking" effect due to binding ... an effect that essentially performs the function of the latches I mentioned in my initial concept. I believe Al serendiptously discovered a way to retard stator rotation at the most critical point without having to add mechanical latches or brakes to do it.

However, this can't be good for the bearings. In fact, bearing heat could actually be the cause of things slowing down and eventually losing sync and coming to a stop.
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:52 pm PostPost subject:
RunningBare
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@OC

I'm tending towards the same idea, the stator bearing is binding at just the right moment to give the rotor a kick due to extended magnetic interaction during the bind.

It would be nice to hear ALs opinion on this, I'm wondering if he found the time to measure jitter in the stator.

ETA, stator NOT rotor DOH!
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:47 pm PostPost subject:
turtles
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overconfident wrote:
@Yirkha,

I really think the rotor magnet positions is a red herring. I'm leaning more towards the bearings as the primary source of the anomaly. I think the bearings are actually providing a "braking" effect due to binding ... an effect that essentially performs the function of the latches I mentioned in my initial concept. I believe Al serendiptously discovered a way to retard stator rotation at the most critical point without having to add mechanical latches or brakes to do it.

However, this can't be good for the bearings. In fact, bearing heat could actually be the cause of things slowing down and eventually losing sync and coming to a stop.


I hear others have had problems with heat and bearings. Wink

Terry
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:23 pm PostPost subject:
ken_nyus
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RunningBare wrote:
@OC

I'm tending towards the same idea, the stator bearing is binding at just the right moment to give the rotor a kick due to extended magnetic interaction during the bind.


I'm stuck on the idea that the dampers provide this binding effect.

Am I just barking up the wrong tree?
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:31 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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ken_nyus wrote:
RunningBare wrote:
@OC

I'm tending towards the same idea, the stator bearing is binding at just the right moment to give the rotor a kick due to extended magnetic interaction during the bind.


I'm stuck on the idea that the dampers provide this binding effect.

Am I just barking up the wrong tree?


The dampers may actually reduce the effect by reducing or balancing the forces on the stator bearing. But, in doing so, they allow the stator to rotate more freely, thus making it easier to sync and allowing for longer runs (reduced accumulation of heat).
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:49 pm PostPost subject:
Yirkha
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overconfident wrote:
I really think the rotor magnet positions is a red herring. I'm leaning more towards the bearings as the primary source of the anomaly. I think the bearings are actually providing a "braking" effect due to binding ... an effect that essentially performs the function of the latches I mentioned in my initial concept. I believe Al serendiptously discovered a way to retard stator rotation at the most critical point without having to add mechanical latches or brakes to do it.
I don't know if the magnet positions are of any importance, I only wanted to make a notice that they are most probably not symmetric, so if nobody will still be able to achieve the effect, this might be another thing to try varying.
Anyway, I like your idea about the unintentional creation of "latches" - it would be really elegant if it worked like that. (And close to the original and most promising design, bonus points for that.)

overconfident wrote:
However, this can't be good for the bearings. In fact, bearing heat could actually be the cause of things slowing down and eventually losing sync and coming to a stop.
I don't know how much energy could be lost this way, but maybe less than when more sophisticated latching mechanism was involved?
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:35 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Yirkha wrote:
overconfident wrote:
However, this can't be good for the bearings. In fact, bearing heat could actually be the cause of things slowing down and eventually losing sync and coming to a stop.
I don't know how much energy could be lost this way, but maybe less than when more sophisticated latching mechanism was involved?


I don't think the energy losses due to heat are the major factor. What I was talking about was the behavior of the bearing will change when it gets hot, causing the latching effect to work less efficiently.
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:14 pm PostPost subject:
MeggerMan
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@Yirkha,
Thanks for pointing out that hidden link, it showed as almost black on the screen (very dark blue) but once I had clicked on it, I could see the link fine.

I have to agree that you may have something there, at least its consistent with the strobe frames.
The thing with the spacing could be another missing link as I am sure that nearly everyone will have put their magnets at spot on dead centre, within +/- 0.5mm of the correct position.
This could be crucial to the device working allowing the rotor a gentle rocking action on top of the standard rotation speed allowing the extra push to be applied to the rotor.
What we need now is for Al to centre the magnets and see if the device contiues to run.

TEST8:
Al, mark the current magnet position with a craft knife blade, then centre the rotor magnets and re-test the sync and run.

Regards
Rob
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:20 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Re: Magnet Spacing
The magnet spacing becomes an even swap for gain on one pole and loss on the next. The more even the spacing the smoother the ride. The stator will respond differently to varied spacing on the rotor only to the extent the the magnetic force of the rotor accelerates the stator according to F = ma. Let's say all the marked poles are pushed close together. This will cause a fluctuation in the stator where the increased density will cause early acceleration for these and the unmarked poles will cause late acceleration do to the reduced density. There will come a point in the speed curve where the L (angular momentum) will override the accel/decel of the stator and it will begin shearing the flux thus reducing its effects.

RE: Bearings
Axial and Radial play between bearing races can and will offer losses to the system as they absorb energy that should be applied to torque. Due to the mechanical nature of the play there are specific rotational harmonics developed that are specific to the race and ball diameters. This interaction is integral to the device operation whereas the axial load is greatest as the poles cross in their tangential pass and conversely during the equatorial pass. The dynamics create an oscillation that runs from 0 torque to max torque every 90 degrees of stator rotation where zero corresponds to the polar passes. As the torque goes negative there is natural tendency for the stator to slow while approaching the equitorial zone and when combined with increased axial loading certainly can have the effect of 'latching' during this transistion. From the equatorial pass we have a sharp transition to postive torque dropping to zero at the polar pass and then then becoming negative torque as we approach the next equatorial pass. Because the positive torque is very steep and the negative torque is gradual there appears to be an angular gain. Edit:Excel Torque plot A1=Torque Max, A2-A19=10 - 180 step 10, B2-B19=$A$1*cos(radians(A2))). Chart column B with scatter x,y points connected with smoothed lines.

Perhaps thats why it works Shocked


Last edited by Harvey on Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:25 pm PostPost subject:
riterX
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Is there a "photo expert" out there that can take the top view of the rotor we have and take the distortion, caused by the proximity of the camera lens, out of it?
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Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:55 pm PostPost subject:
upndwn
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About the bearings..
FWiW..the system that I have been playing with, albeit not as Oc / Als device, (check youtube under 'upndwn) uses steel bolt rod as an axle, and bronze tubing as bearings, with a little lube oil.
If the magnetic interaction is strong enuf, or phased in sync, any little anomalies in a bearing, (short of raw corrosion, or rust particles, (or heat...!!!) causing them to bind) I believe is of small consequence.
I may be proved wrong when I try the device replication,
...anyone have change for my two cents...?
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Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:05 am PostPost subject:
Mr.Entropy
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The stator magnets+bearings are known to be finicky, because Al made a bunch of stators the same way, but said that only half of those actually work.

Therefore, there is some small detail of stator construction that even Al has missed, and this small detail makes the difference between a working and non-working device.

If I remember correctly, Al machines his own parts to good tolerances, and the magents were all ordered from the same source, but the stator bearings were things he had lying around from various sources. This suggests to me that the important difference is likely in the bearings.
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Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:20 pm PostPost subject:
pasi1
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hello,

I am trying to replicate the device.

I am confuse about the measurements. Can somebody make a different topic with the right measurements, in inch or mm.

Seams to be 3 versions. one from Clanzer one from Panacea and one from Al

If Al can make some drawings even by hand would be the best.


----------------------------------------------
In a post Al said the following.

Here's an actual set of measurements made right now.

Material HDPE
rotor diameter 144mm (5.6692)
rotor thickness 18mm (.7087)
distance from OUTER EDGE of rotor, on a radius, to INNER EDGE of magnet slots 13 mm (.5118)
slots are symmetrically arrayed 1/4 nominal width, 12 mm depth (.4724)
slots cut in a single pass with a 2-fluted end mill 0.250

Al mentioned that 1 mm too close or too far, and the effect was not present. I believe he said that at a 4mm distance between rotor and stator, he felt air effects were creating problems. At 6mm I believe he said it was too far for the effect, but 5mm worked for him. (And as has been mentioned, out of a batch of 13 stators, a few(2?) worked easily, a few(2?) he could not get to work, and the rest were in the middle)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/MagneticMotors/OC_MPMM/JasonO/drawing.pdf

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7513/rotorlayoutjj6.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you
Pasi
[/url]
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Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:08 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Harvey wrote:
... From the equatorial pass we have a sharp transition to postive torque dropping to zero at the polar pass and then then becoming negative torque as we approach the next equatorial pass. Because the positive torque is very steep and the negative torque is gradual there appears to be an angular gain. Edit:Excel Torque plot A1=Torque Max, A2-A19=10 - 180 step 10, B2-B19=$A$1*cos(radians(A2))). Chart column B with scatter x,y points connected with smoothed lines.

Perhaps thats why it works Shocked


Here is a spreadsheet illustrating the imbalance:
http://www.urad.net/forums/WhiPMag/Torque.xls
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Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:24 pm PostPost subject:
Magneto
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Hi Harvey, I'm just getting into this whole Whipmag thing, where is the latest gossip on this project and is the momentum dying or getting ever more enthusiastic?
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Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:36 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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@Magneto,

At the moment there are 2 things we are all anxiously awaiting:

1) Completion and availability of WhipMag II, should be pretty soon now.
2) Al's return to active duty.

I can't speak for other experimenters, but my activity is stagnating a bit at the moment. In the past week, I have only spent about 2 hours with WhipMag in hand, just testing some magnetic relationships. I would do more if I could only think of something different to try that I have the skills and resources to do.

Welcome aboard!

OC
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Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:59 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Hi Magneto,

You may be able to search for posts by date to find the latest posts. HedyL posts have little to do with the WhiPMag but they do offer a bit of entertainment.

Most of the current discussions have been in either "From the Front" or "WhiPMag II" threads. Lostcauses has a 'Corner' thread where he posts his findings.

Quite honestly the impetus has become slow and steady and the entire forum is a bit like standing around the "Water Cooler" sharing thoughts and ideas.

As OC pointed out, the majority of the active group concluded that we needed multiple units replicated as close to Al's original as possible. Madprof has begun manufacture of several units that we can distribute globally so that each replicator has an identical unit - including Al. There are so many unknowns that even when Al is holding the unit in his hands they cannot be answered. Hopefully the WhiPMag II will help solidify some of those unknowns and produce more than one working system.

I too have been buried with other time consuming activities with no time for the WhiPMag - but hopefully I can clear some time soon.

Welcome aboard. Wink

Cool
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Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:11 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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I'm ba-a-ack...but I too will be very busy over the next little while. I'll try to look in when I can, but I doubt if I will be able to do any experimentation for a while. I've got a bunch of catching-up to do at work, since my TDY went a bit overtime.
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Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:58 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Welcome back Very Happy

Sorry to hear about your thumb. My dad had a similar experience helping me change the fuel pump in my gas tank. (There is some sharp stuff under a car to be sure). Seems "Blood, Sweat & Tears" are in every thing we do together.

Tomorrow I get to try my hand at gasless Mig welding on his RV bumper. I'm pretty good at gas welding and have laid a few beads of stick over the years with various machines owned by others but he decided he wanted me to try the Mig. I guess the UV and IR are great enough the standard #10 goggles are too dangerous so I got a new helmet today. It auto darkens in 1/25,000 second jumping from #4 to an adjustable setting between #9 & #14. Can't wait to try it out. And of course it has the necessary UV & IR protection Mr. Green I'm having flashbacks of autoshop in 1976 when I stuck about 15 whiskers all around a hole in a fender trying to get the wire feed figured out Rolling Eyes

BTW - was at Harbor Freight and saw this and found out they have 4 different ones. This might work for cleaning bearings.

Wow...I digress - what does this have to do with rotor magnet alignment Embarassed

G2G,

Cool
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