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Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:39 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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In a notable post by TK, he alluded to the possibility that the same force that produces a gain in my pendulum may explain the observed gain in "another device". But he leaves it to the imagination as to what the device is of which he speaks. Perhaps there are some truths hidden in the 5% uncertainty shrouding the WhiPMag. Whatever the case, for a certainty the rotor was not accelerated by the stators, the curve is much to sharp for that.

But I am still curious as to why Korkscrew's model self ran and simulated very closely the results observed in the video of Al's rig.




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Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:45 pm PostPost subject:
korkskrew
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Oh crap...I forgot to post that.

Basically the finer time resolution I used the smaller the excess energy became, so I think it was an artifact of the discontiuous nature of the model.

Someone suggested exactly that at the time and I think I discounted that theory, but now I think it's the correct explaination.

Damned if I know why though...it seems the opposite should be true...
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Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:31 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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FYI: Since ospmm.com is apparently no longer available, I have uploaded my earlier drawings and animations from 2007 to photobucket, under the WhipMag account. For future reference, they can be seen at:

http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn222/whipmag/OC/

Hopefully, photobucket will be around for some time to come.

OC

NOTE: Several of these are also available on CLaNZeR's site, in the OCMPMM section and forum discussion:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/
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Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:26 pm PostPost subject:
diffident
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Thanks, OC.
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Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:04 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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diffident wrote:
Thanks, OC.


I also have a copy of the PDF transcript that was posted on ospmm.org. Does anyone know a good place to post it and make it available? Photobucket apparently does not accept PDF files. Crying or Very sad

(I really wish they would enable file uploads here on fizzx.)
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Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:45 pm PostPost subject:
bano
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overconfident wrote:
diffident wrote:
Thanks, OC.


I also have a copy of the PDF transcript that was posted on ospmm.org. Does anyone know a good place to post it and make it available? Photobucket apparently does not accept PDF files. Crying or Very sad

(I really wish they would enable file uploads here on fizzx.)


http://layout-creator.qarchive.org/
or
http://www.google.bg/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0&oq=PDF+to+HTML+converter&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4RNWN_enBG334BG334&q=pdf+to+html+converter+free
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Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:22 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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bano wrote:

http://layout-creator.qarchive.org/
or
http://www.google.bg/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0&oq=PDF+to+HTML+converter&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4RNWN_enBG334BG334&q=pdf+to+html+converter+free


Thanks, but I would like to keep the PDF format. A lot of effort went into creating the PDF, and the entire contents (and more) is already available on the web at:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687
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Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:41 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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overconfident wrote:
bano wrote:

http://layout-creator.qarchive.org/
or
http://www.google.bg/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0&oq=PDF+to+HTML+converter&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4RNWN_enBG334BG334&q=pdf+to+html+converter+free


Thanks, but I would like to keep the PDF format. A lot of effort went into creating the PDF, and the entire contents (and more) is already available on the web at:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687


I miss Yadaraf... Sad
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Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:04 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Harvey wrote:
I miss Yadaraf... :(


Me too, and a lot of others as well!

Al
MADPROF
CloudCamper
RiterX
Axle
lostcauses
korkskrew

... and I know I've missed a few more.
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Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:30 pm PostPost subject:
bano
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Harvey wrote:
overconfident wrote:
bano wrote:

http://layout-creator.qarchive.org/
or
http://www.google.bg/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0&oq=PDF+to+HTML+converter&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4RNWN_enBG334BG334&q=pdf+to+html+converter+free


Thanks, but I would like to keep the PDF format. A lot of effort went into creating the PDF, and the entire contents (and more) is already available on the web at:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687


I miss Yadaraf... Sad

Hi guy's what;s the mater whi here itis hawe so many sadens people?
what's mean this:
"Me too, and a lot of others as well!

Al
MADPROF
CloudCamper
RiterX
Axle
lostcauses
korkskrew

... and I know I've missed a few more."
busy?
is this mean which I must stop post's too ?
If we must go out sorry at alll my mistakes here.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ar62_enigma-sadeness_music
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Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:46 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Bano,

Harvey and I are sad because several very creative contributors are no longer active here. I'm sure we would make more progress and learn a lot more if they were still here, sharing their ideas and accomplishments.
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Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:49 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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For the record

The reason the WhipMag moves from GW to AGW is because the hierarchical relationship changes.

The small stator wheel field moves from an epicycloid relation with the large rotor wheel field to a hypocycloid relation.

I'm pretty sure I suggested this before but I didn't realise its significance at the time.

I do now because this kind of relation has come up in a different context.

This implies of course that Al is not faking.
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Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:19 pm PostPost subject: To @ OC
bano
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overconfident wrote:
Bano,

Harvey and I are sad because several very creative contributors are no longer active here. I'm sure we would make more progress and learn a lot more if they were still here, sharing their ideas and accomplishments.


OC, General!
I will be here! while we design succesful whipmag or OC MPMM I will be here.
I hawe theory wery powerfull theory!
My theory is :The cause to OCMPMM spin is a substance from human body It is not local phenomenoea it is real thing absolluthely real
I hawe wery important watching. in one new post in my trhead i will post
all my videos at this supppose
all this only if You and thers do not angry to me
the show must be go on Forward with the true:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrB4nGwTay0&feature=related
Cheers Cool
One my bulgarian friend - phizic engenneer would be like to known what can be implement to his idea:
http://clubs.dir.bg/showflat.php?Board=Phisics&Number=1950261483&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&part=all&vc=1
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Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:25 pm PostPost subject:
korkskrew
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I'm not dead yet...

Just too busy to spend time on this stuff. Confused
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Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:41 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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I feel dead...perhaps I am a zombie - RAWR!

Thanx for keeping us posted - I'm worried about JWK, haven't heard anything from him in a while and last I heard he had some doctor related stuff to attend to. Anyone else heard?

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Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:08 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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overconfident wrote:
I also have a copy of the PDF transcript that was posted on ospmm.org. Does anyone know a good place to post it and make it available? Photobucket apparently does not accept PDF files. :cry:

(I really wish they would enable file uploads here on fizzx.)


I broke down and uploaded the file to overunity.com. You will need an account there to access it. Sorry, best I could do without creating myself yet another account somewhere.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=340
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Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:40 am PostPost subject:
cloud camper
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korkskrew wrote:
I'm not dead yet...

Just too busy to spend time on this stuff. Confused


Me too - I'm still undead though I feel like I should be.

I've been laying low out in the bushes for awhile but I think I've made a
new breakthru on getting the AGW cycle to work better and deliver much
stronger torque to the rotor. The stator magnet instead of being a single
diametric is now a composite of several Halbach arrays. Much
improved. Now if I can get the arrays to keep from flying apart at high
rpm we might have something!
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Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:23 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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cloud camper wrote:
Me too - I'm still undead though I feel like I should be.

I've been laying low out in the bushes for awhile but I think I've made a
new breakthru on getting the AGW cycle to work better and deliver much
stronger torque to the rotor. The stator magnet instead of being a single
diametric is now a composite of several Halbach arrays. Much
improved. Now if I can get the arrays to keep from flying apart at high
rpm we might have something!


Good news. Don't be such a stranger. Glad you're still breathing.
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Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:33 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Sounds interesting CC,

Keep us updated Wink
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Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:04 pm PostPost subject:
cloud camper
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Well, the definition of work is force x distance or a set distance for each
stator revolution. So what we're really trying to overcome in any motor
is the back mmf of the rotor and load. This has to be provided by physical
work to create the balance of forces to spin the rotor at a desired rpm.

Now instead of providing physical work to balance the back mmf, we
continually provide something for the stator magnet to push against, and
thus we eliminate the need to supply work. Now all we need is rotational
movement of the stator. Thats what I'm trying to achieve with the counterbalancers.

By balancing the back mmf of the GW stator against the back mmf of the
two AGW stators, we no longer have to provide physical work to create
the balance of forces that spin the rotor. I haven't been able to create
enough back mmf on the AGW side to balance the GW side until now.

The main question still to be resolved is where does the strain energy go
as the rotor load is increased. On the GW side the load puts the strain
energy into the field between the stator and rotor magnets trying to retard
the phase angle, requiring more work to maintain the desired leading GW phase angle.

I'm still pretty hazy on what happens on the AGW side. I'm hoping that as
the strain energy goes up again it will require more work to maintain the
correct lagging phase angle but due to the characteristics of the AGW phenomena
this required work will be in the opposite direction from the GW. More load on the
rotor should try to advance the AGW stator past the commanded phase angle
(since the rotor is slowing down), requiring more work to prevent that from occurring.
I need that required force to be in the opposite direction from the same force occurring
on the GW side so the forces counterbalance even under varying rotor loading.

It will be possible to advance the GW and simultaneously retard the AGW
side at any time while the motor is running to keep the forces balanced.

If I'm wrong on any of the above analysis, the whole thing blows up in my
face! This thing is a total mind bender trying to understand how all the
forces and reactions add up. Nothing will surprise me at this point!


Last edited by cloud camper on Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:27 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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CC,

Sounds like a reasonable analysis. And you have the rig to test it with. Good luck.

OC
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Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:38 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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CC,

If I were at your stage, I would unwrap the 360 cycle and lay it out in front of me flat - 0 to 360 right to left (or inverse depending on the rotation direction) like a ruler. I would then add a row under that for the time divisions for a given RPM and mark the graduations for that. I would then add a row for each stator. Those last rows will have a waveform in them that represents its own angular displacement on its given axis (all stator axes would have zero aligned with the rotor spindle).

The result of this process is a single map of the timing diagram for all the stators and the rotor for a single rotor cycle. This skeleton can then be built upon for adding the forces involved for that specific RPM to their own rows - where the forces would also have their own waveforms that move from min to max relative to their specific axis pin. Magnetic forces and inertial forces could then be compared easily in a visual way by simply drawing a vertical line down through all the rows for a specific point in time.

Making such a chart will no doubt be time consuming, but I think you will find it worth while as well as being easy to share and annotate with others.

Just a thought.

Cool
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Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:52 pm PostPost subject:
cloud camper
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Hey Harv - that sounds incredible (but also incredibly difficult!). The only
way I could see producing such a graph is with a super sensitive rotary
torque sensor and I seem to be a few dollars short on the $8K purchase
price! Plus datalogging equipment to record readings "on the fly".
All I have right now is some crappy low rent wattmeters.

I figure if I can get anything to work at all, the wattmeters should show it
and then I could progressively add more exotic test equipment to try and
optimize the effect.

Also, even if a chart could be produced, it would only represent one specific
combination of advance on the GW side and retard on the AGW (plus
one specific rotor loading and rpm).

I'm pretty sure what you want to say is that the chart will not show one
smooth function where the back mmf's will continually and perfectly cancel.
I realize all that but what I'm hoping for is that the integral taken around
a complete 360 cycle of the stator will approximate zero. The back mmf's
produced by each side is a vector quantity (actually an angular vector)
and will constantly vary around a full cycle but the integration over
the complete cycle is the bottom line. Since the back mmf vectors are in
opposite directions for the GW and AGW stators the force summation
around the full cycle should more or less cancel. The stator I will be using
is in the neigborhood of a pound so this will have a smoothing effect at high rpm.

So there should be a theoretical LaGrange angle existing at all points around the
combined GW/AGW cycle where the force summation should approximate zero.
I'm sure this angle will be jumping forward and back continually as the
cycle progresses and will probably have some nasty spikes and I don't really know
if the computer can approximate it with a steady rpm. I'm sure there will be losses!
If this thing ever shows signs of working, a computer program or spreadsheet could
be developed that would continually increment the advance/retard angles until a
lowest current mode was attained for a given rpm or loading.

Sorry I haven't contributed anything on the Magnetic Pendulum. It is
very interesting and I wish much success with it. I haven't spent even
five minutes on my own project for months so I've been pretty down on any
of this stuff until I came up with a new AGW stator arrangement that hopefully
will make this idea feasible.

OC - thanks for the attaboy! It helps!
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Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:40 pm PostPost subject:
Magluvin
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Back when I was in school, 3 yrs vo-tech electronics and 2 yrs at tech school, the talk of what could be done with BEMF was simple, yet decieving.

They tell you that if you try to harness bemf, that you wont get as much power as you put in due to losses, but they dont tell you that you can get work done with "borrowed" power and give a good portion back after the work has already been done.

Any views on that subject?

Magluvin
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Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:01 pm PostPost subject:
cloud camper
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Sure - the refrigerator in my kitchen is old and inefficient, creating lots of
heat, noise and vibration from running the freon pump. This heat, noise
and vibration is produced by the bemf of the motor and load. I don't use
any cooling in my home so this results in the kitchen being much warmer
than the rest of the house. Right now its 84 F outside so this is not desired
and somewhat unpleasant in the kitchen. But in three months it will be 44 F
outside so the kitchen will be the coziest room in the house without using
the furnace. So here is a good example of bemf being put to work. Or not.
It becomes just an engineering problem to put it to use.
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Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:51 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Joule Heating

If the BEMF is allowed to do this, then it is converted to heat as in CC's case.

If it is instead routed through a superconductor, then it can result in higher efficiency.

What happens if we route it through a resistive material that cannot take any more heat energy without changing states and it is already at its highest state, aka plasma? The material will have no choice but to give up the energy in an electromagnetic form as electromagnetic radiation. In the future we have plasma conductors in thermally insulated plumbing that run at thermal limits and they produce more radiant energy than any other means. They are sort of like neon tubes in a Thermos. We also have transformers made from these type of conductors. But maybe I am just making that up and I really don't travel through time... Mr. Green

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Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:34 pm PostPost subject:
cloud camper
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Still crawling along here with my microprocessor controlled and magnetically counterbalanced test rig. I've got the new stators fabbed and Halbach arrays assembled. I have replaced the original diametrically magnetized AGW stators with the arrays. These are creating a much greater torque on the rotor, necessary to counterbalance the back mmf generated off the main GW stator. The cool thing about the Halbachs is that they allow a relatively long positive torque cycle while creating a very short and weak negative torque shear event. This is because any Halbach array will double the flux on one side of the array while nearly eliminating it on the other. With nearly 2 lbs of stator mass in rotation the shear event should be short with minimal negative torque. I still don't know if it will be enough but have designed in easy upgrade paths. The AGW counterbalancers are now 2" dia against the 1" GW. Very simple to get even more torque by going to a 2 1/2" then possibly 3" dia AGW stator.

I've figured an easy way to calibrate the counterbalancers to accurately match the GW stators back mmf. All I have to do is run the rig minus counterbalancers and note the power requirements at full load on the main rotor. Then run the system again with only the counterbalancers (removing the GW stator), again noting power requirements at maximum load. If I can get the wattages the same, problem solved. If there's a close match, this should equate to basically no load on the stator motors regardless of load on the rotor as both back mmf paths are being counterbalanced against each other.

This would mean that the integral of F dot dl taken around a complete cycle would be near zero as the continual summation of the +F force required to overcome the back mmf generated at the GW stator along with the -F force required for the AGW would cancel (more or less). This in spite of both GW and AGW stators producing equivalent and simultaneous forward mmf's on the rotor.
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Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:04 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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cloudcamper wrote:
This would mean that the integral of F dot dl taken around a complete cycle would be near zero as the continual summation of the +F force required to overcome the back mmf generated at the GW stator along with the -F force required for the AGW would cancel (more or less). This in spite of both GW and AGW stators producing equivalent and simultaneous forward mmf's on the rotor.


Thought I would try the Math Functions here on the dot org site.

`int f * dl`

In your case you may have to factor a fourth force. The 'mesh' force that translates to added pressure and friction on geared systems. The reason we find teflon gears, or high viscosity, low cohesion oils between meshing teeth.

In the other way, where instead of meshing gears we have meshing magnetic fields, or another motor for each stator, then that force is nearly frictionless but runs the risk of shearing when it exceeds the available tension provided by the magnetic field.

I would be very interested in viewing the mathematical calculations for your arrangement Smile

As always, please keep up the good work!

Cheers,

Cool
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Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:52 pm PostPost subject:
cloud camper
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Geez Harv, I wouldnt' even know where to begin to create calculations for
this thing. At this point it would probably take 6 yrs of rehab to recover the
3 yrs of college math and physics I took!

But seriously tho, I'm just developing this thing empirically for now. If it
shows any signs of working then I'll have to do some sort of handwave
approximation to cover the math (which nobody would buy anyway).

Somehow I kind of doubt there are any good physics to describe a
Halbach array being used as an AGW stator in a dynamic environment.
I could see that being a 10 yr math project all by itself! Crying or Very sad

The gearing I'm using are large delrin spur gears with very little friction.
They are Eflite Blade 400 heli tailrotor gears. Seem perfect for the application!
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:03 pm PostPost subject:
cloud camper
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This is very cool - from the article Concerning the Physics of Halbach Arrays
by James R Creel, Dept of Physics University of Texas at Arlington

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:PAJt8QxfUdEJ:www.uta.edu/physics/main/resources/ug_seminars/papers/HalbachArrays.doc+halbach+arrays&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The uniqueness of these arrays does not only lie with the fact of the nearly one-sided flux (only one sided flux
for perfect world examples). Another interesting and unique quality of these arrays is that they array is stronger
than its individual components, because field lines can be thought of as being somewhat superimposed. Therefore,
if the array was made up with the strongest permanent magnets in existence, the array would produce an even
stronger magnetic field!
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