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Steorn Forum allows con artists free reign!

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Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:47 am PostPost subject: Steorn Forum allows con artists free reign!
PennyWise
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Well it seems that if you are someone like Mark Goldes you can promote your nonsense on the Steorn forums. But beware if you call him to task and call a spade a spade - namely that he is a con artist and a fraudster. Cal him a "... con artist and fraud stealing money from gullible investors", and what happens? Crank jumps in threatens - "I will ban if you make accusations like that. Your words are actionable."

Is she afraid that MPI will sue Steorn? Well that would be a great court case - Mark would have to turn up with his OU machine and prove it worked in open court. Not in a million years is he going to do that! He can't! He doesn't have an OU machine.

So the result is that crank and Steorn have provided a forum for people like Mark Goldes to promote their non-existent wares. Way to go crank.
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:39 pm PostPost subject:
maryyugo
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Goldes is in some ways nastier and more insidious than Steorn. He's taken money longer and has defrauded the government as well as a lot of private investors and he's still going like a demented energizer bunny. But I think his "time" is coming soon. People are finally tiring of hearing "next year". Even professional gullibles like Sterling Allan are asking why he doesn't send stuff for testing to Hal Puthoff. T

That's an irony by the way-- Hal Puthoff becoming a more or less credible tester of overunity devices. Apparently his protocols have improved since Uri Geller. It's a funny bizarre world out there. I read Puthoff's white paper from Earth Tech and I really think he can test overunity devices but only if the claim is for a fairly large effect. If it's minute, he could pull misleading "data" out of noise. I don't trust his objectivity much.
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Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:28 pm PostPost subject:
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I'm in total agreement about Goldes. At one time I think he thought he had something. He still might believe so but I doubt it. How do these folks find people to give them so much money?
And Uri was a lot better, back in those days--you would have been fooled too. Especially with Russel Targ around.
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:23 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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alsetalokin wrote:
The actual laboratory rough stuff is handled mostly by Scott Little. Scott knows what he is doing.

Does he? I sent him my data on water and he claimed they were not significant . Fortunately Professor Chaplin's grasp of statistical analysis was stronger and he put my findings on his web site. I would imagine the Scott's practical abilities are adequate enough - but maths? very suspect.
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:08 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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@Frank: Can you please post a link?
Thanks--Al
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:54 am PostPost subject: Re: Steorn Forum allows con artists free reign!
crank
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PennyWise wrote:
Well it seems that if you are someone like Mark Goldes you can promote your nonsense on the Steorn forums. But beware if you call him to task and call a spade a spade - namely that he is a con artist and a fraudster. Cal him a "... con artist and fraud stealing money from gullible investors", and what happens? Crank jumps in threatens - "I will ban if you make accusations like that. Your words are actionable."

Is she afraid that MPI will sue Steorn? Well that would be a great court case - Mark would have to turn up with his OU machine and prove it worked in open court. Not in a million years is he going to do that! He can't! He doesn't have an OU machine.

So the result is that crank and Steorn have provided a forum for people like Mark Goldes to promote their non-existent wares. Way to go crank.


Why don't you take a running jump at yourself? I can only deal with people according to how they post on the forum. It's not up to me to research the background of everyone who posts, and make a judgement about whether they're for real or not.

If I banned everyone who claimed to have an OU device there'd be a huge clear-out. And I'd have to ban Steorn. Twisted Evil

I do the best I can to allow the forum to function for the people who enjoy it. The people who argue with Overtone appear to enjoy the arguments.

Edit to add How come you're not demanding that Overtone be banned from this site?
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:49 am PostPost subject:
exco
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Why don't you simply admit that the whole field of 'OU' is nonsense?

This is, after all, the view held by all working physicists. Perhaps they know what they are talking about, and are right. Perhaps, also, steorn and it's adherents are crooked or deluded. Certainly this is a much more believable explanation.

I think the US patent office has it right. Unless you can show us a working perpetual motion machine, we will not waste our time looking at an application.

In other words. "Put up or shut up!"
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:33 am PostPost subject:
crank
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exco wrote:
Why don't you simply admit that the whole field of 'OU' is nonsense?



Is that addressed to me? I'll make up my own mind, without any input from you.
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:36 pm PostPost subject:
maryyugo
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Crank wrote:
"I do the best I can to allow the forum to function for the people who enjoy it."

Baloney. You and/or Magnatrix selectively ban the very people who have the most effective arguments. For example:

Steorn's claims are nonsense on their face --prima facia. And they are simplicity to test (a screening test at least) quickly. Claims that it requires a jury, claims that scientists won't examine devices, all of that is total nonsense. Steorn's claims can be tested by a decent lab in less than a week. Instead, Steorn has been carrying on an expensive and deceitful boondoggle that has lasted a year and caused the waste of time and energy of thousands of people including those who went all the way to London last month to be shown absolutely nothing!

I can't say that on the Steorn forum. I tried to do so before the demo and I was banned. I insulted nobody and I was never even the slightest bit impolite. Not only that, but Magnatrix accused me of being someone else (Pennies_everywhere) without the slightest evidence.

The Steorn forum is run very much like the forums of psychics who claim to talk to the dead and steal millions of dollars every year from grieving people. They ban effective dissenters while allowing token dissent. That's not something to be proud of. Steorn has been scamming millions and by suppressing dissent in a capricious manner, you are helping them.
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:06 pm PostPost subject:
Frank
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alsetalokin wrote:
Frank wrote:
alsetalokin wrote:
The actual laboratory rough stuff is handled mostly by Scott Little. Scott knows what he is doing.

Does he? I sent him my data on water and he claimed they were not significant . Fortunately Professor Chaplin's grasp of statistical analysis was stronger and he put my findings on his web site. I would imagine the Scott's practical abilities are adequate enough - but maths? very suspect.


@Frank: Can you please post a link?
Thanks--Al

I certainly can. Very Happy

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html

And you will see that following my leads Professor Chaplin discovered a significant relationship for himself, namely, the relation between temperature and viscosity for water.

Now this data isn't my data. It's data which has been around the the International Critical Tables for yonks. The data I used came from the 1920's edition. Chaplin updated it with the very latest values which are only marginally different.

Why is it that these relations have gone undiscovered for so long? Water is by far the most significant fluid we deal with. After all, we are 70% water ourselves.

I'll tell you why. It's because nobody has been looking for them.

And why haven't they been looking for them?

Because their conceptual models of the nature of a material are inadequate. They are piecemeal and lack a unifying hierarchical structure. They are like the imperial system of weights and measures compared with the metric system (someone has raise this topic in another thread).

Their models fail to recognise the self-similarity at different scales of substance and motion.

I found these relations (and others) because I went looking for them armed with a general solution for the hierarchical series which I discovered in the study of clays and cemented material and developed with carefully controlled experiments on the stress-strain and failure modes of concretes. The insights gained at the macro-scale led on naturally to the discoveries at the micro-scale.

And it is because I have a unique view of the nature of the magnetic field that I am confident energy will eventually be mined from it. When I first read Steorn's claims last August I took them at face value and assumed he must have succeeded in his quest. As things developed it became increasingly obvious that his claims were grossly exaggerated. After the deliberate abortion of the Kinetic demo it make one wonder whether he has anything at all.

I rather doubt it started out as a deliberate financial scam. Self delusion, the kind the Dutch engineer displays in the Kinetica toy video, seems more likely.
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:38 pm PostPost subject:
maryyugo
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There's no shortage of free energy scams! Sterling Allan, a well meaning fellow, seems to promote them all. Here: http://freeenergynews.com/

Two cute examples:

1. The "Fuelless Engine":

http://fuellesspower.com/5_fuelless_enginePhoto.htm

My favorite quote from there: "Question: Is it true you once sold Fuelless Heater Kits as well as Fuelless Engine Kits?

Answer: Yes, at one time we did, in the early 1990's, but we have to be careful what we say. We are selling information that has been suppressed for many years and is still being suppressed to this day! There are many people who do not want free energy devices to be manufactured or sold on the open market. We sold many of these small prototype kits but had to stop! We are only allowed to sell the plans and videos. You can build our devices for your own use only. You can not manufacture or sell our devices."

Do they not realize how totally hilarious this is? Apparently not.

And then there is this bizarre toy: http://tinyurl.com/27ngk2 ... does nobody else but me see the obvious AA battery (one end covered with black tape) at the bottom of the toy? It's a cute little motor-- that's all! There are many plans for devices like that all over the internet.

http://superpositioned.com/articles/tag/motors

The above is a variation on the theme.
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:53 pm PostPost subject:
crank
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maryyugo wrote:
The Steorn forum is run very much like the forums of psychics who claim to talk to the dead and steal millions of dollars every year from grieving people.


Rolling Eyes

Jeeze, talk about stretching to make a point! "grieving people"

Rolling Eyes
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:22 pm PostPost subject:
maryyugo
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@crank

It's an example-- you know what an example is don't you? Psychic mediums who prey on and grossly rip off grieving people moderate forums exactly the way you and Magnatrix do. They ban and censor the most effective dissenters without sense or logic and especially without need. That behavior indicates incompetence, lack of concern, fraud, or some combination of those. Want to tell me which combination it is?

PS: in case you don't know about those so-called psychic scams try googling John Edward (not the candidate Edwards), James Van Praagh (also known as James Van Fraaud), Sylvia Browne, Rosemary Althea, and well... that should get things started. Check out their "forums"... heh!
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:06 pm PostPost subject:
crank
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maryyugo wrote:
That behavior indicates incompetence, lack of concern, fraud, or some combination of those.


...or of course there's the other explanation - that Magnatrix and I dodge in and out of the forum in between doing the things that constitute our 'real lives', and try our best to keep on top of things.

Certain threads are so wearisome that I try to avoid them - global warming, arguments about religion, arguments about American politics. And I'm afraid that all of Overconfident's contributions fit into that category as well Sad

I'm human, with a low boredom threshold Confused
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:02 pm PostPost subject:
maryyugo
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"I'm human, with a low boredom threshold"

You mean a low banning/censoring threshold? Otherwise EXACTLY why was I banned? Why would you (or Magnatrix) believe I was someone else? (not that that should matter) like Pennies for example?
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:12 pm PostPost subject:
crank
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Because some people join time after time with new accounts. For instance Ping has over 80 accounts, as far as I can see. Frank Grimer has had 5 or 6, the latest being 'almost'. Another poster had 23. Unfortunately, your posting style is so similar to another banned poster that it didn't seem to be a coincidence.
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:53 pm PostPost subject:
maryyugo
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OK, then why was "Pennies" with apparently the same posting style as me banned?

Don't you at least warn a serious poster before they're banned about the nature of the problem?

I'm not talking about obvious spammers, writers of obscenities or other abusers. I haven't followed Pennie's postings in detail but none that I saw seemed excessive, unfairly insulting, obscene or abusive nor did I see any warnings. And what is truly ironic is that you are now discovering that she, I and many other skeptics are very likely to have been right! I mean when we said that significant OU is easy to test and Steorn shows absolutely no credible evidence that they have anything at all.

And if you're relying on "style", that's obviously fraught with error! So why, having discovered the error, did you not restore my signon?
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:07 pm PostPost subject:
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crank wrote:
Because some people join time after time with new accounts. For instance Ping has over 80 accounts, as far as I can see. Frank Grimer has had 5 or 6, the latest being 'almost'. Another poster had 23. Unfortunately, your posting style is so similar to another banned poster that it didn't seem to be a coincidence.

I counted 5 - but it could well be six. Embarassed

How about unbanning the Grimer account. Very Happy After all, I do at least think it's more likely Shaun did find an anomaly which they haven't yet been able to explore successfully than that they are a bunch of hypocritical scammers.

I have read it's a common moderator practice to suspend people rather than ban them permanently - bit like the PC attitude of schools nowadays.

Not only that, but thanks to Yugo et al's sneering at my Gamma-atmosphere, etc., I've had the incentive to build on the arguments I put forward in my Spud blogs which you possibly read before I defenestrated them.

I'm confident that I can now show a cast iron logical proof that one can get energy from the magnetic field. A physical model can be faked but a mathematical model (logical model) cannot - and its components are much easier to verify. I'm sure even a crap East European car wouldn't argue with Euclid's beautifully simple proof that the number of primes is infinite, something impossible to prove experimentally.
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:08 pm PostPost subject:
crank
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I don't think I was the one who banned you, so I'm not in a position to reinstate.

Quote:

And what is truly ironic is that you are now discovering that she, I and many other skeptics are very likely to have been right!


Please don't tell me what I'm discovering. You don't know what I think about Steorn.
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:37 pm PostPost subject:
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crank wrote:
I don't think I was the one who banned you, so I'm not in a position to reinstate.


Wot! You saying you never banned any of those 5 accounts? Rolling Eyes

Oh well, I'll just have to take my Ideas elsewhere. Cool
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:09 pm PostPost subject:
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Frank - I was replying to Maryyugo. Your post wasn't there when I replied, I've just seen it now when I returned.

I have no problem with you, but you do push things as far as you can. I'll reinstate the Grimer account as long as you keep to the TOS.

Edit to add hang on, I've just remembered why you were banned Evil or Very Mad

I've reinstated the Grimer account, but I can't speak for Magnatrix. She may not agree.
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:27 pm PostPost subject:
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I think membership in the Steorn forum is a pretty moot issue at this point. I'm sure readership has shrunk. For sure, on topic posting is virtually nil. The ball is squarely in Steorn's corner but it isn't likely they'll pick it up anytime soon.
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:32 pm PostPost subject:
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So true Mr. Green
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:43 pm PostPost subject:
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crank wrote:
Frank - I was replying to Maryyugo. Your post wasn't there when I replied, I've just seen it now when I returned.

I have no problem with you, but you do push things as far as you can. I'll reinstate the Grimer account as long as you keep to the TOS.

Edit to add hang on, I've just remembered why you were banned Evil or Very Mad

I've reinstated the Grimer account, but I can't speak for Magnatrix. She may not agree.


Ta Crankie. Very Happy

I'll try to be a good boy. Now I've got something important to say it should keep me out of mischief for a time. Cool

In fact, if what I am going to claim is correct it should be a considerable help for Sean providing his attempts to mine "free" were genuine. And it will be a fatal blow to the skeptics who believe that obtaining a continous supply of energy from the magnosphere is intrinsically impossible.
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:03 pm PostPost subject:
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"a fatal blow to skeptics", Frank?

Actually most all skeptics would love nothing better than to be proven wrong. A common error made by free energy whackoes is that skeptics don't like free energy. What skeptics don't like is stupidity, empty claims, and deception. Free energy would be wonderful.

Now onto the strange things you posted on Steorn's forum which I am banned from replying to over there:

"It seems to me most skeptics believe that getting energy from
the magnetic field is intrinsically impossible. Physicists are
probably the worst in this regard. Many appear so puffed up with
their mastery of such esoteric subjects as quantum mechanics that
they think they can pontificate on any aspect of physics. In fact
very few of them are as knowledgeable as Cyril Smith (an engineer)
on the finer points of magnetism."

As usual, you miss the point entirely. If you have a novel way of producing energy without consuming ordinary fuel, get on with it and show a machine or device that proves it. Stop wasting our time with complex unproven conjectures and jargon. If there is free energy, I for one don't care one whit how it works. Just show us something that works.

"The absolutist position of such people is their Achilles heel since
one only has to show logically that it is possible to set up an
arrangement of magnets which must necessarily result in energy
production and their belief becomes demonstrably false."

OK-- where's that arrangement and the proof that it works? (sound of crickets in the night)

"One doesn't need to produce a physical model. One only needs the
logical argument, which given the obvious truth of the foundations
has to be correct. A logical argument is in fact the simplest
mathematical argument one can have. It can even be expressed in
logical symbols if one is so minded."

That's the stuff that scams, self deception, and/or fraud are made of. What's obvious to you may be nonsense to someone else. The ONLY way to prove you have a new source of energy is to provide it. That follows the old saw that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." The REASON for it is so that the rest of us can avoid wasting our lives away debunking bullshit. So put up or please shut up-- oh never mind... we can always ignore you.

"The classic demonstration of the superiority of logic over
experimentation is Euclid's beautifully simple proof that the number
of primes is without limit - something self-evidently impossible to
prove experimentally."

You're confusing mathematics with physics and engineering-- not a very smart or persuasive way to go. Try taking a course or reading some books about "theory of knowledge" and scientific method. You will learn that mathematics does not apply to the physical world without interpretation. For example, in math, 1+1 = 2. But 1 drop of water + 1 drop of water = 1 larger drop of water (if they touch). And 1 bacterium + 1 bacterium = billions of bacteria (if you allow them a place suitable for breeding and a bit of time). There are inumerable examples like that where simple arithmetic does not properly model the real world.

"The amount of continuous energy a physical embodiment of the argument
might produce is totally irrelevant. You can't be a little bit
pregnant. If one can demonstrate even a pico watt of continuous
energy production then the skeptics belief in the inviolability of
the magnosphere is down the toilet."

Like everything you claim that I've seen so far, this statement is also deeply flawed. It ignores that measurement methods have noise. If the effect is too small, it is likely to be measurement error. There are many exceptions to this in science but they have required huge and expensive efforts on the part of large institutions to prove-- example: the discovery of the neutrino. Peer review also helped to pin that down. You're also begging the question of what it means to "demonstrate" something. The smaller an effect, the better the experiment has to be to "demonstrate" it. You are doing experiments, right, Frank? So what are the results?

"Once one has destroyed the dogma, the rest is simply engineering."

Famous last words from the long list of whackoes who claimed free energy. Nobody has made any free energy yet!

"Thanks to developments of Iterative Hierarchical Mechanics in my
Spud Blogs I am now in a position to do this. I'm sure readers will ...."

Yeah, yeah... stop with the jargon and show us something tangible already! Fat chance of that!
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:03 pm PostPost subject:
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"Thanks to developments of Iterative Hierarchical Mechanics in my
Spud Blogs I am now in a position to do this. I'm sure readers will ...."


Yes! I noticed this too! What a cracker! This from the man who (shortly before) berates physicists thus:

Many appear so puffed up with their mastery of such esoteric subjects as quantum mechanics that they think they can pontificate on any aspect of physics.

I guess 'Iterative Hierarchical mechanics' is in no way 'esoteric' (despite the fact that only one man- grimer - imagines he knows what it is) What a caution this man is!
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:48 pm PostPost subject:
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exco wrote:
"Thanks to developments of Iterative Hierarchical Mechanics in my
Spud Blogs I am now in a position to do this. I'm sure readers will ...."


Yes! I noticed this too! What a cracker! This from the man who (shortly before) berates physicists thus:

Many appear so puffed up with their mastery of such esoteric subjects as quantum mechanics that they think they can pontificate on any aspect of physics.

I guess 'Iterative Hierarchical mechanics' is in no way 'esoteric' (despite the fact that only one man- grimer - imagines he knows what it is) What a caution this man is!


Fair comment.

Are you a physicist?

Laughing
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:46 am PostPost subject:
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It gets funnier and funnier. Cyril Smith thinks FPG is Pennies. Pennies sure gets around!

Fpg, who formerly posted on this forum as pennies-everywhere

from http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59186&page=4

... and someone keeps claiming the "simple magnetic overunity toy" or SMOT actually has been built... but of course can't produce one. It's really hilarious over at the Steorn forum... or sad, depending on your view.
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:26 am PostPost subject:
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Are you a physicist?

I think I won't say for fear of opening myself to abuse. Who cares anyway?
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:31 am PostPost subject:
exco
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So far there has been NO logical argument and NO working model. Whether grimer is right or wrong is therefore somewhat hard to decide.

Boasting about your amazing advances in iterative hierarchical mechanics does not (in my book) count for a damn thing.
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