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Some ideas about Entropy

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:58 am PostPost subject: Some ideas about Entropy
WhiteLite
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I have been thinking about how free energy may exist with respect to Entropy and thought I would post my ideas here.

I'm not sure of the exact definition of Entropy but essentialy if you have an area of high energy on the left and an area of low energy in the right then energy will flow from left ot right, (from the high area to the low). My idea is that at the quantum scale there is a swarm of particles, or a field or something that exhibits both very high, (maybe infinite) and very low, (or zero), Entropy and that one mearly needs to create a device that harmonises itself with the high Entropy part to harness energy or the low Entropy part to lose energy, (could be good for cooling applications).

An analogy would be: Imaging a railway track with an infintly long train on it. Half the wagons contain goods and half the wagons are empty, (alternating wagons are full and empty). Your device would be a train station and to obtain goods from the train, the station needs to open when a full wagon is along side it and closed when an empty wagon is beside it. To load goods on the train, the station needs to be open when an empty wagon is beside it and closed when a full wagon is beside it.

Any thoughts on this?
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Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:01 pm PostPost subject:
clovis ray20
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dam fine analogy now how does it pertain to our device.
i think i understand so for so please go ahead with your thought
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Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:50 am PostPost subject:
Andreas
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How does it pertain to our device?

Well, that seems to be the entire problem. Even if it can be done, and if Steorn has done it, no one knows why it works. We are going to have to try a few new theories to describe the phenomena.

It is an excellent analogy by the way, but maybe I can give some of my thought/theory on the subject.

I notice that most people have a natural tendency to think of infinity in terms of large, or high energy as you put it. Infinity works both ways, so zero is also an infinite state. I like to consider high states, or rising states as a move towards 1, and low states, or falling states, as a move towards 0. Neither state of 1 or 0 is achievable within the confines of our universe, but the universe is simultaneously moving towards both states. Expansion and acceleration is a move towards a singular state, or 1, and the overall entropy of the universe is a move towards a state of nothingness, or 0. As our universe expands and accelerates, we become ever larger. These constant rising states creates the condition of constant falling states. The larger our universe becomes, the smaller the elements within the universe become in scale to the rest of the universe. Both conditions of infinity are being met, but neither can be achieved fully because the end result would create both nothingness, and a singular state of nothingness. This is where flow comes from, which defines why electricity flows at all.

I hope I was clear enough, because I'm tired.
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Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:24 am PostPost subject:
babcat
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Welcome to the forum Andreas! We are glad to have you with us!
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Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:11 am PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Thanks for the comments! Essentially what I was saying was that at a minute level the universe is made up of very high and very low entropy particles, (doesn't have to be particles though), and accessing either the high or low entropy particles is merely a case of creating resonance with them.

Essentially you want to think of a model where the universe doesn't fall apart under natural circumstances but where we can still access this energy with the right tools and methods.
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Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:38 pm PostPost subject:
Andreas
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Here's a link to building an FE motor. Has anyone heard anything about it?

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromag.htm
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Tue May 08, 2007 5:08 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Still bumping up threads, trying to enliven the forum a little. OK, here goes:

@WhiteLite: So it must cost some "goods" to open and close the station. The stationmaster (call him Max Welldemon) must take a bit of "goods" from a full car to open the station, and must deposit a bit of "goods" in an empty car to close the station. Or vice versa, my head is resonating a bit too much here...Anyway, eventually all of the infinite cars are half-full, Max Welldemon can't tell whether to open, close, load, unload or what, and the system stops. Call this the "heat death of the rail system" if you want to. Meanwhile Steorn are still working on getting the rotational device to stop start-stopping, or start stop-starting, or something, and Sean keeps banking away some of whatever it is that they are posting as losses on their balance sheets.

@Andreas: Jean-Louis has built and tested just about every free-energy device and antigravity machine that anyone has ever some up with, and he freely posts everything on his web site. The link you posted is like 7 years old, but he is still at it. Some of his research is good, some bad, it's hard to tell sometimes if he thinks his stuff works or not, but he sure does have fun, and I wish I could meet him and do some work for him. I have no idea how he pays for anything.
Maybe all those nuclear reactors that France has hooked up to the grid are really huge banks of miniMROmag generators, secretly whirring out free electricity, and AirFrance airliners are powered by antigravity engines instead of Pratt&Whitney turbojets.
Or maybe not.

Pass me another pint of bitter, this is thirsty work.

"bump bump bump
another one bites the dust
and another one's gone, another one's gone,
another one bites the dust..."

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Tue May 08, 2007 8:21 am PostPost subject:
exco
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I suggest you read up on entropy.

Actually it is a pretty useless concept without C of E. Mind you, so is almost all physics.

As current physics accurately describes a working universe, however, I'll stick with it until a working perpetual motion machine is displayed. My bet is that I'll have along wait!
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Tue May 08, 2007 12:52 pm PostPost subject:
WaBoy
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@exco

Yes, but we can dream... Wink
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Wed May 09, 2007 5:26 am PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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exco wrote:
I suggest you read up on entropy.



Well, exco, I took your suggestion and read up on entropy. Here's what I found out:

entropy: An experimental musical ensemble active in the early 1990's. Recorded several sets of "sonic events", today considered very rare, including "Forests Beyond our Control", "Heat Death of the Universe", "Minor Harmonic Altercation", "Cricket Soup", "Subcutaneous Lectures" (an homage to John Cage), and the eponymous "entropy". Utilised various ideophonic instruments such as the 2-by-4-by-phone, the boneless soul-crusher, the "infernal machine" which was a light-controlled electronic random sound generator, as well as more traditional instruments like microMoog, Fender fretless bass, Irish harp, melodica. Provided sonic events for a live production of Peter Weiss's strange play "Equus", to rave reviews, and was featured several times on a late-night radio program in (location deleted to protect the innocent.)

Oh, and there was some other really dull stuff with funny diagrams and symbols and something called the Inequality of Clausius. Or was that a nightmare I once had, for an entire semester? I forget....at least I wish I could, sometimes.

Embarassed

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Wed May 09, 2007 4:40 pm PostPost subject:
WaBoy
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One of my favorite authors when I was growing up, Bob Heinlein, once wrote, "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" (TANSTAAFL). More correctly he should have stated, "There is no such thing as a free lunch" (TINSTAAFL) to avoid the double negative. Regardless, it is a simple restatement of the Law of Conservation of Energy - as he intended.

He also had a delightfully succinct definition for entropy: "Everything runs downhill."

Very Happy
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Wed May 09, 2007 7:05 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Well, you could run back up the hill again--but you'd be a lot tireder than when you ran down the first time. If we could only stop discriminating against that Clausius fellow! If a State legislature can pass a law saying that pi=3 it seems that we should be able to get them to pass anti-Clausius Inequality laws. But then maybe Orbo would only be legal in that state...

Wink

I'm sure we've heard this:
Three Laws of Thermodynamics (paraphrased):
First Law: You can't get anything without working for it.
Second Law: The most you can accomplish by work is to break even.
Third Law: You can't break even.

But here's one I hadn't heard:
Ludwig Boltzmann, who spent much of his life studying statistical
mechanics, died in 1906, by his own hand. Paul Ehrenfest, carrying on the
work, died similarly in 1933. Now it is our turn to study statistical
mechanics. Perhaps it will be wise to approach the subject cautiously.
-- David L. Goodstein [ _States of Matter_ ]
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Thu May 10, 2007 9:44 pm PostPost subject:
exco
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There's another definition of entropy of a language which is used in information theory.

The sum of the logarithms of the probability of the language's symbols multiplied by minus one.

The units depend on the base of the logs used. If we choose as base, the number 2, the answer is in 'binits' - closely related to, but not the same as 'bits'.

Just as physical entropy is a measure of the degree of variability of a system, this 'information' entropy is a measure of the variability of the language and it's information carrying capacity. The fundamental ideas are the same.
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Fri May 11, 2007 3:32 pm PostPost subject:
Joh70
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thats not true: "current physics accurately describes a working universe"

or you mean the opposite?
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Fri May 11, 2007 8:24 pm PostPost subject:
exco
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Consider the following:

I have been thinking about how free energy may exist with respect to Entropy and thought I would post my ideas here.

I'm not sure of the exact definition of Entropy ...


So why not go read up on it before waffling on about it?

Despite admitting that you don't know what the definition is (Any decent physics text book will tell you precisely) you then go on to talk nonsense like:

Essentially what I was saying was that at a minute level the universe is made up of very high and very low entropy particles, (doesn't have to be particles though), and accessing either the high or low entropy particles is merely a case of creating resonance with them.

Pure twaddle!
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