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New model for Flux and things

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Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:50 pm PostPost subject: New model for Flux and things
GregL
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As a practical programmer, I can solve equations by simulation/calculation, as my maths is not PhD standard. What I would like is to be able to model what we know already, and using the model try and extrapolate some new variations. We can then use those results to make a better model - maybe the equations will jump out at us.

The best we can do at this stage is to try and simulate what happens in Steorn's test rig. They have given us the data in the spreadsheet, but we need to know what magnets and where.

Any clues?
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Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:16 pm PostPost subject:
Splonk
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I too am a programmer. At this point I'm more interested in replicating the effect than simulating it.

Basically, I don't think that Steorn is trying to fool us (gut instinct), but, I'm still not willing to spend the time trying to simulate the effect until after I've seen it work. A video is not going to be enough for me either. I need to build/disassemble a working demo, so I know there is no possibility that I've been duped.

At that point I would like to work on modeling the effect computationally -- partly to convince myself that I haven't fooled myself.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile trying to start up a sourceforge project at that time?
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Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:47 pm PostPost subject:
avid_engineer
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I have done a fair amount of coding in my time, and also considered the possibility of reversing or brute forcing test results in order to better guess the setup. Unfortunately, while i can see how the test results could provide an interesting angle of investigation my standard of math is not really up to that kind of analysis.

I'm also in agreement with Splonk on the point of wasting time. Since this forum began i have spent much time designing test rig variations that could be built to provide ways of testing our own ideas. After quite some time pondering and discussing i almost gave in due to the fact that Sean is very very carefull about giving out details. Because of this i now believe we are far closer to Steorn inviting us to learn the secrets, than we are to guessing them ourselves.

I do however applaud the continued efforts of our members here, and this is one aspect which as yet has gone un-discussed!
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Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:15 pm PostPost subject: Magnetic forces
GregL
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I have been using Visimag to get some understanding of what is going on between permanent magnets in various configurations (2D).

The next step is to try and work out the forces acting on the magnets, and I have reached a dead end. I assume some sort of integral of B around a loop enclosing the magnet is required.

Has anyone any ideas to help me?
Has anyone got even some basic measurements of attraction and repulsion they can share?
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Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:24 pm PostPost subject:
TylerD1
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Awhile back someone posted a link in the Steorn forum that led me to a program called Radia. It calculates magnetic fields, forces, and other things in 3D, but it requires Mathematica. The documentation/reference guide does provide some insight into how to calculate the force though. There are two methods provided, and the descriptions are:
Quote:
"The function computes a force acting on a magnetized or current-carrying object, as a gradient of potential energy the object possesses in an external magnetic field. In many cases this method for the force computation appears advantageous as compared to the one based on the Maxwell stress tensor..."

Quote:
"The function uses the force computation method based on the Maxwell stress tensor. Another Radia function ... computes forces through potential energy of the object in external magnetic field. The later method may work faster in some cases."

I've tried both functions and it seems like the second one (the one that uses the Maxwell stress tensor) doesn't work properly (it also requires specifying the shape of the area the force is affecting, which has an effect on the results). The example for calculating force given on the website uses the function for the first quote (using the gradient of potential energy) and it seems to be working (the numbers look realistic).
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Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:24 am PostPost subject: Sean's amazing energy
GregL
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The following has only just become apparent to me - the rest of you have probably been there a long time ago!

Forces exerted on a physical magnet in a magnetic flux are due to the local flux only - possibly just on the boundary of the magnet itself. The forces act against the flux.

Where two or more magnets are moving relative to each other, the magnetic flux will be changing, and magnetic viscosity may come into play. This will mean that the local flux acting on a magnet does not balance instantaneously with the local flux acting on the other magnets in the system.

Any work exerted/extracted by the moving magnet(s) will again not balance instantaneously. As each magnet is pushing/pulling the flux, any mis-match of work is absorbed/supplied by the flux.

This may not be a problem as the flux is not just local. Any Visimag plot will show lines disappearing off one edge of the plot, only to magically appear back at the opposite edge - with the implication it may have gone off to infinity in the meanwhile. The flux may be considered as an infinite sea which encompasses not just the magnet(s) of interest, but other local magnetic phenomena - computer, telephone, washing machine, car, power station, Earth's magnetic field .... Depends how local is 'local'.

The flux then has a (near?) infinite capacity to absorb/donate work.
We should give up on looking for domain strain energy etc. as the place where the missing work is to be found.

The Steorn effect is then basically 'magnetic viscosity'.
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Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:16 pm PostPost subject:
nova
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Umm.. what?

I suppose I have some more learning to do. However, in an effort to find my way. Does anyone know of an algorithm or other such function that can be used to plot the vector of a magnetic field?

Otherwise, does anyone have any good resources to learning about magnetic fields?
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Wed May 21, 2008 4:57 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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@Nova,

Force between two magnetic poles
The force between two magnetic poles is given by:

`F = \frac{\mu q_{m1}q_{m2}} {4\pi r^2}`

where

F is force (SI unit: newton)
qm1 and qm2 are the pole strengths (SI unit: ampere-meter)
μ is the permeability of the intervening medium (SI unit: tesla meter per ampere, henry per meter or newton per ampere squared)
r is the separation (SI unit: meter).
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