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A Permanent Magnet Motor Idea

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Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:47 am PostPost subject: A Permanent Magnet Motor Idea
Splonk
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Hi, I've been a lurker on this and the Steorn forum since the early days -- mostly because I didn't feel I had anything to contribute.

However, I've had an idea now that I'd like to bring up here for consideration/development.

Today I finally got my 8 1" Cube N40 Neo magnets delivered, and set to work (play) with them. Basically, I used some polystyrene packing material a spacers to keep them apart, and/or fixed in place -- so I could play with one while keeping the other static. I decided to take an intuitive approach rather than use the electromagnetic theory I learned at University, as since them I've seen it criticized as an oversimplification of the original theory. (A simplification that was done to make the equations soluable).

The first thing I noticed that I though was strange was that there were some pretty considerable twists (torques) on the magnets as I brought them together or pulled them apart. The more I though about that, the more it intruiged me.

Then, I noticed that there were some side-to side arrangements that could be repulsive and attractive.

Finally, I figured I'd learned enough for the day, and started to figure out a way to put them away that would make them easy to take apart again, stored in an attractive configuration (as I heard repulsive will run them down), and in a stable arrangement, so they wouldn't end up all stuck together in the box, which makes them really hard to take apart.

Once I had four of them together with polystyrene spacers together, I decided to play with them again. This is the arrangement I had them in:

(Side View)
Code:

--------------
----N----S----
----S----N----
--------------
----N----S----
----S----N----
--------------

One N/S represents a single magnet.
The --- represent about 1" of polystyrene spacer.

I took another magnet and let it stick on top of one of the magnets, then I tried to slide it over to the other magnet, while trying to allow it to rotate as it wanted to. Of course, one effect of this was that the magnet I was sliding did a 180 turn during the slide. About 1/2 of the slide was difficult (due to pulling away from the magnet it was attracted to), and the other 1/2 was easy (as it was pulling to the next magnet it was attracted to). I started to wonder if the toque of this rotation could be harnessed.

So, after that I added my last two magnets so I had six in the array, and then did a (free to rotate) slide of the single magnet along the top of the array:

The linear motion was right to left. The rotational motion was anticlockise through both intervals.

Code:

              N
              S
-------------------
----N----S----N----
----S----N----S----
-------------------
----N----S----N----
----S----N----S----
-------------------


Code:

         S
         N
-------------------
----N----S----N----
----S----N----S----
-------------------
----N----S----N----
----S----N----S----
-------------------


Code:

    N
    S
-------------------
----N----S----N----
----S----N----S----
-------------------
----N----S----N----
----S----N----S----
-------------------


Once I'd done that, and I could see that the rotation was always in the same direction, I wondered what would happen if the line of magents was wrapped around in a circle and the single magnet was allowed to rotate on the rim of a rotor turning it around the circle. I think I would spin in the same direction all the time.

Now then, that all seems straightforward (although I'm not entirely convinced that the rotor magnet would rotate in the same direction all the way round if it doesn't have a constraining surface below it -- instead being hung from above (from the center). I'm not sure if the friciton with the surface is making the rotation of the magnet always happen the same way. That's one of the reasons I'm posting here, in case anyone else knows better already.

The next thing (and the main thing) is, what about work done? I'm making these assumptions at this point. First, if the rotor magnet is free to rotate and fixed on a slider above the array of magnets, then it will take as much energy (work) to move the magnet away from a part of the array it is attracted to as it will gain by being pulled to the next part of the array that it will be attracted to (neglecting work done against friction, sliding along). Second, as the magnet slides along it has a torque exerted upon it, always in the same direction, as it is moved along, and, this torque can be harnessed to do work. If the amount of work that is done by the torque is greater than the energy lost to friction, this should give over-unity.

So, my idea is to build the array in a circular format, and mount the freely rotating magnet on the circumference of a rotor, and then build some kind of gearing to get the torque of the rotating magnet to cause the rotor to rotate. Perhaps if the rotor is heavy enough to act as a flywheel, then, once you get it going fast enough (manually) that it will keep going past each sticking point, then maybe the extra torque of the rotating magnet on the rotor will continue to accelerate the flywheel, and you can start to extract energy from it, even though it keeps going.

I bet I'm wrong and I've overlooked something, but I think that the 'twisting' of magents in each other's magnetic fields is something I've never really seen taken into account.

So, I'm going to begin work on this test setup... In the meantime, I'd be happy to hear any of your comments. Also, please, feel free to experiment with this setup yourself, and/or use the ideas in your own setups.
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:49 am PostPost subject:
resonatrix
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The free magnet aligns itself to the flux lines of the stationary magnets. With such a setup it may be possible to extract motive energy, but have to make a clever arrangement of the magnets.



I thought another way inspired by the photos on STEORN's site, although they claim their machine does not utilize spirals, I anchored on the words "special track" which they "move in to gain energy".

So what do you think if such a wheel can be made to rotate by taking the sliding object out of the center once it arrives there, with an amount of energy less then the magnetic force brought it there?

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Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:30 am PostPost subject:
babcat
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Very interesting thoughts guys! It's great to see bright minds at work!

My advice is to keep on experimenting. If you build a rig and have a webcam please consider taking a video of the setup and posting it to youtube or google video and then provide a link here.

I'm hopefully going to be getting some magnets soon so I can start experimenting.
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Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:37 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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That's a very interesting idea. You might want to refer to the list of clues Sea has given on the foum and see if they match as this may be an indication that you are on the right track. My personal opinion is that the device relies on magnets coming together and moving apart at right angles.
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Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:16 pm PostPost subject:
Splonk
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@resonatrix:
Thanks for clearing up the rotation question -- I see now that the rotation will be in only one direction as a result of the rotor magnet lining up along the field lines of the stator magnets. That's encouraging.
BTW: What program did you use to do your drawings? I'd like to do some more comprehensive drawings of what I'm thinking about too.

@WhiteLite:
I think that what I have so far tallies with a few of the ideas that were discussed about how energy could be extracted from permanent magnets. I think that a1trips and someone else were discussing it on the Steorn forum at one point and the conclusion was that if the approach angle and the retreat angle were different and/or if the approach velocity is higher than the retreat velocity then it might be possible to extract energy (from the 'beta atmosphere' was it?).
In terms of velocity, I think my idea has it, as the velocity increases on approach to the magnets due to magnetic attraction, and decreases on retreat, again because of attraction. As for angle, I'm not entirely sure, and perhaps that is where a 'more 3D' arrangement may be necessary.

However, I think I need to build a test rig for what I have so far, using a circular arrangement of the stator magnets, perhaps with them offset a little upwards and downwards, any maybe experiment with some different twists.

I'm also thinking that I need to have some kind of belt and pulley system attached to the rotor magnet on the rotor circumference to the central rotor axle in order to transfer the 'twist' from the rotor to the main axle. I need to build it so that I can experiment with different pulley sizes and arrangements.

I'm also wondering if it'll be necessary (or possible) to create a system that allows one to apply the twisting torque from the rotor magnet to the axle in an 'out of phase' fashion in order to more easily pass the 'sticky' points (at the moment I'm relying on the momentun of a flywheel to do that).
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:08 am PostPost subject:
resonatrix
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Splonk;
I use simply Paint tool comes with Windows. Having times with friends whose job were graphics, I saw they use old AMIGA500's "Deluxe Paint" liberally and very quick. Similarly although seems very inferior in layout and number of functions, Paint is a very great program to create such schematic drawings. You may want to take a look at my electronics page where I used it to draw circuit boards easily as well as the whole site. http://tacashi.tripod.com/elctrncs/pcbworks/pcbworks.htm

I got into the subject when I saw news on local newspapers saying that a Turkish company including retired army members announced that they made a machine utilizing the " INERTIA PROPERTY OF THE MATTER " to produce continuous motion just to power virtually everything we know today (cars etc.). They invited people to their press meeting who were also retired commanders of the Turkish army. Speculated three possibilities discussed here in Turkey:

1) They do not have anything, all done is to cheat people to humiliate army forces by means to show how retired commanders can be fooled in front of the cameras. It may also be a commercial campaign using the words "Power" or "Inertia" to describe social power instead of physical.

2) They are a branch of STEORN (where I got the name and started to search for it), a company had a similar statement a few time ago.

3) They indeed got something works, and since somebody (STEORN) had already tried to make it public, they believed it's time to bring it to the daylight. Just they feared of the dark powers of economic forces, petrol and automative companies both national and international, thet preferred to first declare it to retired army commanders for whom they believe can protect them.

Webpage of the claiming company: http://www.erketurk.com/

There's no Turkish translation on babelfish.altavista.com; So I have to ...

They say:

"All we done is to utilize inertia of the matter to get motive force. The claim says energy cannot be produced or destroyed is true. We all believe that and our machine obeys this rule too. But in science, nobody has made a description of the "Force" from the perspective what it "is" but many theories on what it "does". We say that our machine converts energy from an unknown source or from a known source (i.e. the daily forces we know) by means of an unexplained way with our current knowledge. The first product of this machine will be an electric generator which will be released public in 2007."

They seem very confident and "scientific" with their words.

Also I got this logo which is said to be their logo; it's very interesting (if someone else did not draw this) that it resembles a magnetic motor layout to me. There are magnets around a curved body of a swan. Swan is a symbol of "Cleanness" used in cosmetics commercials which may refer to clean energy. Thinking paranoid, this may be a 3D view of the machine from top, maybe a rotor in a housing with three layers of magnets. Also the parts perceived like magnets look alike of the ranking symbols of military commanders carry on their shoulders, all eight combinations are different from each other. Is this layout the one everybody is searching for? Then what shape the rotor should have? Forgot it, all paranoid thoughts of mine Smile



They insist on they make the machine, although strong oppositions from the people and academic side.

You can get lots of news on the phenemon by typing words "erke" and "enerji" in search field of www.google.com.tr (unfortunately all will be in Turkish, but can see there are lots of discussion).

From my point of view, whoever will be succesful to make their claimed technology available to people, it's not important if it's STEORN or ERKE. All I want is to see it's REAL. I'm waiting since my age of 8.
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:56 pm PostPost subject:
Mousebender
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i too use ppaint under winuae, along with mspaint. the ppaint .anim format is also good, higher quality and faster than gifs.

i'm genuinely surprised anyone else still uses it, tho i can appreciate why.

i like the challenge and method of setting out the geometry of a design using really simple functions in a logical progressive way.

i hate adobe bloatware.

it's like the difference between tracking and using cubase (my other pet hate). using simpler software encourages lateral thinking.
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:08 pm PostPost subject:
TylerD1
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resonatrix wrote:
Also I got this logo which is said to be their logo; it's very interesting (if someone else did not draw this) that it resembles a magnetic motor layout to me. There are magnets around a curved body of a swan. Swan is a symbol of "Cleanness" used in cosmetics commercials which may refer to clean energy. Thinking paranoid, this may be a 3D view of the machine from top, maybe a rotor in a housing with three layers of magnets. Also the parts perceived like magnets look alike of the ranking symbols of military commanders carry on their shoulders, all eight combinations are different from each other. Is this layout the one everybody is searching for? Then what shape the rotor should have? Forgot it, all paranoid thoughts of mine Smile

It appears to be a bagua. "The bagua is an energy map in the shape of an eight sided symbol, an octagon. Each side of the bagua represents a different aspect of life..." (reference)
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:45 pm PostPost subject:
Mousebender
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...and the noble eight-fold path is the inspiration for QCD and the quark model...
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Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:00 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Er... that symbol is virtually the same symbol used by the fictional Dharma Initiative in the American TV series "Lost". The makers of the show are notorious for putting lots of puzzles on the internet. Intriguing...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DHARMA_Initiative_stations
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Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:24 am PostPost subject:
resonatrix
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I see; they (or someone opposing) copied the logo and put the word ERKE on it. Magneticity is the connection between the science fiction and this real-life claimers. Then it is nothing to do with it.

Since Sean claims their machine operates only in one way, loses power (consumes, dissipates?) the other way; I think on two wheels with some magnets on it working through each other at an angle, or angles...
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