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Seans Comments on the LEMA

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Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:21 pm PostPost subject: Seans Comments on the LEMA
drichardson
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Steorn 10 hours ago
Hi Folks,

I know that a lot of people have been asking if LEMA part of our OU technology and if not what is it and why did we design it?

The answer is no, it is not part of the OU technology. As previously stated we have developed several anti-counterfeit technologies in the past, these technologies where developed for a client FraudHalt (you can see a quick overview of the technologies at http://www.fraudhalt.com/demos/)

As you can see both of these technologies have a very heavy optics involvement. Anyone who works with optics will know that you typically build prototypes on an optical bench.

So? Well optical benches use magnetic clamps - these type of clamp are turned on and off by moving a shield in front of the clamping magnet. LEMA was a concept to help reduce the force that the person using the clamp has to apply in the camping/unclamping of these types of devices.

Thanks,

Sean


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Steorn 2 hours ago edited
Hi bobcat,

Lets take an objective view of LEMA. It is in essence designed to reduce the force required to actuate a magnetic field (as noted above). However it is interesting to take an energy view of what is happening.

Assume the LEMA unit is standing upright. If you remove the top magnet and move the shield up and down (excluding friction) you will get a net zero energy balance. Why? Because the energy you put into moving the shield up will be regained when the shield is pulled back into its original position. Adding the second magnet does not change the net zero energy sum, just the level of forces (and hence energy) involved.

So in a friction free world you have the ability to create a machine with a LEMA type device that gives you a fluctuating magnetic field for no energy. So if LEMA can be used to develop an OU device then you need to be able to harness this field without substantially changing the net energy profile of LEMA.

Thanks,

Sean


Quote:
Steorn 1 minute ago
Hi bobcat,

A final note on LEMA. I do not think that you will get anywhere with LEMA for the reasons stated above. Our actual OU technology is all based around a physical principle that we have discovered, all tests over the years for OU or otherwise confirm the reality of this physical principle. There is nothing about LEMA that would harness this principle.

If you are interested in OU I would suggest building a test system and experimenting, i.e. start from the ground up.

Thanks,

Sean


So any OU effort involving the LEMA, I suppose, wouldn't necessarily be classified as a replication Smile

Now, replication of the LEMA itself should be fairly simple. There isn't anything complicated about it. Though I don't know what knowledge we could gain from a reproduction that we haven't already gained from the patent.

Though While I'm on the subject, I agree with Sean's suggestion that we build a test system.

Edit:
Quote:
Steorn 15 minutes ago edited


Hi bobcat,

Try vizimag - its a free package (in the fact the animation mode was put into the package based on a request from one of our engineers!)

http://www.vizimag.com/

I think that just trying to run off and build an OU machine would be a waste of effort and money. The first thing to do is to test ideas - sometimes it is quite easy to simulate these ideas.

Thanks,

Sean
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:30 am PostPost subject:
babcat
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I downloaded that software and have been playing around with it some this afternoon. I really don't understand it well yet, but it is interesting to be able to map the flux around an object. I still have several questions about the software. Is anyone else going to download it?

Also, I'm curious just how much can be modeled with that software program. Can you put magnets on a rotating wheel and and see how the thing would move? I'm still trying to figure it out.

But about the LEMA... since Sean has basically confirmed it's probably over-unity perhaps we should move on and let it be. It's interesting to me, but he's made it pretty clear it's not OU as far as they are concerned.
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:20 am PostPost subject:
breeze
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Hi Babcat.
I dl'd the software and was not impressed with it's capabilities. IT is a beginning, there is a much better program $$$$$$$$$$
And as Sean has stated, it's happening in 3dimensional. MAxwell student version is only 2d.
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:57 pm PostPost subject: More thoughts on LEMA
Steorn
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Hi Folks,

Some additional thoughts on LEMA. LEMA will give you a fluctuating magnetic field for no energy cost (other than losses due to friction). This in itself is very interesting since to do repeatable work you need to have a fluctuating magnetic field.

So if LEMA has OU potential then there needs to be a way to harness the fluctuating field without 'disturbing' the net energy balance of the LEMA unit itself.

Any ideas?

Sean
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:23 pm PostPost subject: Yet more thoughts on LEMA
Steorn
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So,

If you try to harness the fluctuating field produced by a LEMA unit, how can we do this? Introducing another PM will be an issue because it will also have a strong interaction with the shield. What would happen if you put a coil beside an actuating LEMA unit? What would the effect of the current induced in the coil be wrt to the shield?

Sean
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:14 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Sean, I suspect the current that would be generated in the coil would consist of less energy than it took to move the LEMA. Sad
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:18 pm PostPost subject:
breeze
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Hi Sean.

Thanks for contributing to this forum. It is a lot less noisy here Wink

Re the coil. I'm not very expereinced in this area, but in regards to the fluctuating field, could this not be used to perform a mechanical movement ?
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:18 pm PostPost subject:
Steorn
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Hi Whitelight,

The point is that other than friction losses it takes NO net energy to actuate LEMA up and down.

Sean
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:20 pm PostPost subject:
Steorn
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Hi breeze,

Maybe, but the question would be if doing such mechanical work disrupted the energy balance of the LEMA device would all the energy then net to zero?

Sean
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:29 pm PostPost subject:
breeze
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Steorn wrote:
Hi breeze,

Maybe, but the question would be if doing such mechanical work disrupted the energy balance of the LEMA device would all the energy then net to zero?

Sean


Without actually testing it, I could not say for sure. But, With the fluctuating field, be it introduced mechanically only with magnets, then removed creatively, Wink like I think you fellows have done, would be a gain. I'm stuck on the 3 dimensional view myself.
Like a kid on a long drive, are we there yet, are we there yet ? lol
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:08 pm PostPost subject:
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Steorn wrote:
Hi Whitelight,

The point is that other than friction losses it takes NO net energy to actuate LEMA up and down.

Sean


Oh I see, I thought it would be sticky. I take it that this doesn't work if a permanent magnet is held over the LEMA?
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:26 pm PostPost subject:
Steorn
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Hi Whitelight,

Think of the problem outside of LEMA. Now if you move two magnets together and apart the energy cost of the interaction is zero. However in moving the magnets together and apart again you create a changing magnetic field. The problem with LEMA or the two magnet approach is that while in isolation both produce a moving magnetic field for no energy, harnessing the field will disrupte the zero energy balance and classical physics will tell us that whatever way we use to harness this will result in a net zero energy equation.

So I come back to my original point. You need to come up with an idea and test it. You cannot get around the test phase because all that classical physics will tell us will end up with unity.

So test, test and test again!

Sean
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:40 pm PostPost subject:
breeze
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Exactly.

And this is where the second rotor can play a part I am hoping. Wink
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:37 pm PostPost subject:
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Hi Sean, I hear what you're saying. Any theoretical models based on classical physics will always produce non OU results as those laws say that OU is impossible. The only way to find an OU device is to build something that should work conventionally but displays anomolies that can be harnessed in useful ways. Actualy I pointed that out to babcat but there are so many different threads around, (here and in your forum), that it's easily missed.

Looks like I will have to move to a testing phase now.

Shocked
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:52 pm PostPost subject:
babcat
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Hello Sean,

I think I'm better understanding the problem now. There is a special energy balance in the LEMA that allows for shield to move very freely and the only cost is friction. However, putting another magnet in the scene would disrupt that and perhaps make it more difficult to move the shield. Also, another magnet would also be attracted to the shield itself which could cause a problem.

I'm starting now to understand why the LEMA might not work in a situation with another permanent magnet.

However, you told us that having nearly free (except for friction) movement of the shield would provide low cost switching of a magnetic field. There must be some way to harness that.

Your example of letting it switch near a coil of wire is a good one. But enough current would have to be created to power some sort of small motor to move the shield and have a little left over for the device to be truly over-unity.

Does anyone here have any electromagnetic modeling software they could use to model how much current would be produced by letting a known set of permanent magnets switch on and off infront of various sized coils of wire or perhaps even inside a coil of wire?
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Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:39 pm PostPost subject:
drichardson
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Babcat,

You wrote:
Quote:
However, putting another magnet in the scene would disrupt that and perhaps make it more difficult to move the shield. Also, another magnet would also be attracted to the shield itself which could cause a problem.

I'm starting now to understand why the LEMA might not work in a situation with another permanent magnet.

...

Your example of letting it switch near a coil of wire is a good one.


A current will be induced in a coil exposed to a changing magnetic field.

Now, consider what happens when you pass a current through a coil of wire.
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Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:51 am PostPost subject:
babcat
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drichardson,

So do you believe that LEMA could be used to create electrical energy through interacting with a coal of wire or wires?

Like I have said before, I'm not an expert in these things. Honestly, I'm not even worthy of being called a laymen. I apologize for my ignorance. But what do you honestly think of Sean's suggestion?
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:27 pm PostPost subject: Re: Yet more thoughts on LEMA
DaveHoward_
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[quote="Steorn"]So,

If you try to harness the fluctuating field produced by a LEMA unit, how can we do this? Introducing another PM will be an issue because it will also have a strong interaction with the shield. What would happen if you put a coil beside an actuating LEMA unit? What would the effect of the current induced in the coil be wrt to the shield?

Sean[/quote]
Hi Sean,

In your last sentence, "What would the effect of the current induced in the coil be wrt to the shield?"

What does wrt mean?

with respect to?

Anyone else here knows?

Thanks.
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Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:19 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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Yeah, it means with respect to. Smile
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:23 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
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You know, reading this thread back now I get the feeling I was missing the point of what Sean was suggesting. Forget about the LEMA side of things, it seems significant now...
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Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:57 pm PostPost subject:
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I wonder is Sean was trying to direct our attention towards an anomaly they've discovered when manipulating a permanent magnet's field with a LEMA...

I wonder if the induced current in a coil doesn't act the way you expect it to i.e. perhaps it doesn't have any effect on the LEMA, but instead opposes the permanent magentic field that is creating it...

Basically, what I'm asking is that although it is not possible to get a static magnetic field of a permanent magnet to do work, perhaps if you manipulate that field with a LEMA, an electromagnet's field at 90 degrees or maybe another permanent magnet's field, then as it is changing due to that manipulation it can do work.

Maybe that work it does is more than the work you need to do to manipulate it.

I'm thinking it that's the case, then you are basically getting energy from the electron spin. Think of the permanent magnetic field being produced by electron spin. Electron spin is like an 'unstoppable force' in magnetic terms, I think. I think the way to access it is to use the 'equivalent current' model of the permanet magnet, and realize that that equivalent current is coming from electron spins.

I bet I'm wrong in some way, but so far this seems like the most likely avenue.
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