top

My guess at Steorn's OU principle

Post new topic Reply to topic FizzX.org Forum Index | Inventor's Corner    Page 1 of 1

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:05 pm PostPost subject: My guess at Steorn's OU principle
WhiteLite
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 181
Location: United Kingdom

Reply with quote

Sean has been mentioning a lot about coercivity and B-H tables and it got me thinking. When you bring 2 magnets together you get an increase in magnetic field strength and flux density, (how close the lines of lux are together). If somehow you could get the flux density to drop faster when you pull a magnet out of a field than it did when it entered the field then assuming coercivity applies to magnetic fields and not just inside magnets then the force required to remove 2 attracting magnets apart would be less than the force you got by allowing the magnets to come together. How do you do this? Here's my idea.



From this picture you have the top and bottom magnets fixed. The magnet to the right moves left. As you can see the flux density is fairly low at this point.



Now the moving magnet has been fully attracted to the fixed bottom magnet. The flux density is now quite high.



Now we start to move the magnet up, pulling it away from the bottom magnet it is attracted to. If the top magnet wasn't there then the flux density would slowly drop but the top magnet is stealing lines of flux from the moving magnet. This means that the flux density is dropping faster than when it was initially attracted to the bottom magnet.



The moving magnet is now between the top and bottom magnets. The lines of flux are being shared between both magnets and therefore the flux density is much lower than the entry path.



A very small amount of energy is needed to pull the magnet away to the right. Hopefully it took less energy to remove the moving magnet from this field than you got when it entered the field.

Any thoughts?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:34 pm PostPost subject:
verticalvoid
Contributor
Contributor


Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 19

Reply with quote

From the depiction of the magnetic fields, I follow, but without anything for myself to play with, I don't know. It sounds good. Hopefully when I go home from break, my old boss will have some junk HD's lying about and I'll smash them to get some magnets and play around with it. Keep up the good work and keep us all posted on new data.

VV
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:49 am PostPost subject:
Splonk
Contributor
Contributor


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Denver, CO

Reply with quote

I think you're on to something...

Perhaps the next step is to think of a way to use another axis to move the static magnets when the moving magnet is at the point of closest approach, so that when it leaves, it is leaving through a less dense field.

I think that is what happens in the Steorn 'Toy' -- there is a sudden movement of the 'stator' when the rotor magnet is at the point of closest approach, which presumably changes the field that it has to escape from...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:56 am PostPost subject:
Splonk
Contributor
Contributor


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Denver, CO

Reply with quote

Another comment...

Perhaps another way of thinking of your idea is to consider that on approach most of the force is coming from attraction to the bottom magnet.

Then, you move away from that magnet, but towards the top one so the top one pulling in the direction you want to go while the bottom one is pulling against the direction you want to go.

Finally, when the magnet moves away to the right again it is being pulled towards both the static magnets again, which is against the direction of motion.

Hope you don't mind, but I'm trying to put this all in terms of forces, just because I've never actually seen a magnetic field line Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:59 am PostPost subject:
Splonk
Contributor
Contributor


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Denver, CO

Reply with quote

While writing that up, I had an idea how you could construct something that would look a lot like Steorn's 'Toy' using the configuration of magnets you've shown.

You'd put the two 'static' magnets into the 'array' (the one that moves perpendicular to the disc) and the moving magnet would go on the rotor. Then, rotational motion would move the moving magnet close to the 'bottom' magnet in your design, and, at the point of closest approach the static magnets would move so that the rotor was now in between them, then, the rotor magnet would continue around it's revolution away from the 'static' magnets.

I hope that conveys what I'm thinking to you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:12 am PostPost subject:
Splonk
Contributor
Contributor


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Denver, CO

Reply with quote

Ok, I've done some sketching and it's lead me to propose another configuration of magnets, very similar to yours, but with some slight differences.

One thing I was concerned about your idea is that two of the magnets are in opposition to each other, which I think will cause them to wear each other down if left that way for long enough.

So, I guess, what I'm asking is maybe could you put this idea of mine in your flux modelling program and see what you think?

By the way, what program are you using? Is it free? Downloadable? Would you post the url if the answers to the last two questions are yes?

Ok, anyway, on to my 'modification'. Take the setup you have and replicate all five positions, but in each, flip the bottom magnet 90 degrees CW, the top magnet 90 degrees CW and the moving magnet 90 degrees CCW.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:17 am PostPost subject:
Splonk
Contributor
Contributor


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Denver, CO

Reply with quote

You know my thoughts have also run off in another direction, stimulated by the ideas here, along with the idea of making the necessary movements happen using a machine very similar to Steorn's 'toy'.

The direction is one that also includes the idea of the LEMA, but, instead of using magnetic shielding as the thing that slides over the static magnets of the LEMA, using a magnet. In this case, the thing that will be sliding will be the moving magnet in your diagrams. Which would be the rotor magnet in the 'Steorn Toy' setup.

What do you think of trying to put together an arragement of magnets that are going to stay still that is maybe a bit more like the LEMA arrangement?

Is this perhaps already what you've done?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:23 am PostPost subject:
Splonk
Contributor
Contributor


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Denver, CO

Reply with quote

Partly I'm posting all this stuff to get all my ideas down before they evaporate again, but also because I want to share them in case anyone else can take them any further.

I'm probably going over the same thing again, but I want to be sure I didn't miss anything.

The idea is that the 'up' movement of the moving magnet is not done by the moving magnet, but it's done by moving the the two static magnets both at the same time, as an ensemble.

The 'left/right' movement of the moving magnet is done by rotation -- one continual rotation provides this movement if the rotation is perpendicular to the plane of the diagram.

Finally, and this I think will be the clincher -- the 'up' movement done by the 'static array' is somehow really easy to do -- i.e. Low Energy (the LE of LEMA), but it makes a big difference to how easy the retreat of the rotor magnet is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:30 pm PostPost subject: Whitelite's program
GregL
Contributor
Contributor


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Hampshire, UK

Reply with quote

This looks very promising.
I too would like to know what program you are using Whitelite - does it also generate force measures?

I will spend a little time working on alternative to the motions suggested by you and Splonk.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
 
Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:59 pm PostPost subject:
WhiteLite
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 181
Location: United Kingdom

Reply with quote

To be fair, after playing around with some magnets I think I was a little premeture in thinking this was how Steorns device works.

The program I use is pretty good. It's called Visimag and has a 30 day free trial, (although I've paid for mine now). It is only 2D though and doesn't predict the forces involved as far as I know.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:38 pm PostPost subject:
couldbe
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor


Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 63
Location: Canada West (Upper Canada)

Reply with quote

Splonk wrote:


Finally, and this I think will be the clincher -- the 'up' movement done by the 'static array' is somehow really easy to do -- i.e. Low Energy (the LE of LEMA), but it makes a big difference to how easy the retreat of the rotor magnet is.


I had the idea that a mechanical shield could be replaced by the effect that Neo mentioned - that if a weak and a strong magnet are brought together, with the same poles facing, then the weak magnet will be demagnetized, and if brought closer, its poles will flip.

If the weak magnet is kept within whatever distance from the strong magnet results in it being demagnetized, wouldn't that allow it to move very easily? It would be as if it was not in a magnetic field and would be relatively unaffacted by the proximity of the strong magnet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
 
Post new topic Reply to topic FizzX.org Forum Index | Inventor's Corner
View previous topic
View next topic
Display posts from previous:   




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum