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Skeptic theories thread

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Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:55 pm PostPost subject:
gaby de wilde
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Come ping1400,

The truth is easy to grasp.

You cant just go reduce the cost of energy to nothing. People will be extremely annoyed by that. They have so much income they are obligated to buy out anything that upsets the economy on that scale.

Exploitation of the tech can only happen though the hands of the supper rich. It would be laughable to try to compete with their marketing powers.

I'm not interested in the building and the exploitation anymore.

What I find interesting is how those people think mankind is going to survive if all progress is prevented with gross international effort.

I wouldn't even know how to give them my inventions for free. Laughing Seem the only way out is to take the inventions to the grave. But look how that approach assumes no-one will ever think up something useful? Shocked

Then there is that additional wall of dogma people live behind.

Those in the know are only in the know in one small area of expertise. Generally speaking they are not in the know at all.

It's one big silly show. Laughing
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Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:58 pm PostPost subject:
turtles
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Especially if those energy sources depend on rare materials. I did a quick calculation using Steorn's 0.5 W/cm^3 and, assuming neodymium is necessary for the PMs to do their thing, there is not enough Nd in the known world reserves to make a dent in the 4 Quad energy usage of the US alone, much less the world.

Unfortunately, this is also true for the new solar panel. It seems that most if not all the new nanotech PV materials depend on indium. Well indium has already seen a surge in price by a factor of 25x due to it's use in LCD monitors and TVs.

Now cold fusion is another story thanks to the amount in deuterium in the ocean. Smile

Terry
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Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:37 am PostPost subject:
babcat
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The fact of the matter is that the Steorn technology does not require the use of neodymium. Various magnetic materials can be utilized including ferrite.
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Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:44 am PostPost subject:
Frank
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babcat wrote:
The fact of the matter is that the Steorn technology does not require the use of neodymium. Various magnetic materials can be utilized including ferrite.
That makes sense. I feel sure that once the technique of mining energy from the gamma-atmosphere has been established there are many material with which it can be implemented. One things for sure. There ain't any shortage of iron. Laughing
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Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:10 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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I wonder...If the moon can move oceans twice a day and not lose orbit....I wonder if something similar is possible with powerful magnets...Hmmmm. Neutral
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Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:29 pm PostPost subject:
maryyugo
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Quote:

The fact of the matter is that the Steorn technology does not require the use of neodymium.
The fact of the matter is that no Steorn technology has ever been shown. It is highly doubtful to any non-gullible person that it ever existed. Same for the entirely unnecessary jury.
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Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:50 pm PostPost subject:
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You can prove something exists, but not that it does not.
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Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:54 pm PostPost subject:
maryyugo
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@JoinTheFun
Not sure what you are getting at. You can prove that some things are vanishingly unlikely if not impossible to exist. Steorn's gizzmo is one example. In any case, it's not up to anyone to prove the negative. It's up to claimants to make their case. Otherwise, every idiotic claim would have to be checked out and nobody could get any work done.
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Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:05 pm PostPost subject:
JoinTheFun
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maryyugo wrote:
@JoinTheFun
...It's up to claimants to make their case....

Absolutely.
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Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:50 am PostPost subject:
HedyL
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The whole Steorn scheme was to keep forum members, jury, et al busy so as to prevent them from thinking too deeply into the subject or arguing back and forth ad infinitum about the prospect.
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Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:08 am PostPost subject:
Harvey
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Quote:

... arguing back and forth ad infinitum about the prospect ...


Hey! I resemble that замечание Laughing
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Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:09 am PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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Posted by 'thebadger' on the Steorn forum in the 'Is Steorn Still Developing Orbo' thread:

My best guess (FWIW, as an occasional lurker and even more occasional poster) is that the penny dropped last July when they discovered that whatever phenomenon they thought they had provided to be unreproduceable outside their test lab / test rig. After returning to Dublin, no doubt they found where their measurements were in error and experienced that horrible sinking feeling we all know - typically after discovering a HDD crash on your main PC - and remembering that you never did quite get round to installing that backup software.

Since then I suspect they have been scratching around desperately for a new business model that will allow them to both save face and create a viable business for their investors.


Could fit the SteornLab trademark of September 7th, 2007 "Providing test methods, namely, hardware and software to measure characteristics of mechanical systems, namely the torque and energy associated with mechanical systems and magnetic properties of materials" and the patent that was filed in 2006 for a "System and method for measuring interaction of loads (United States Patent 20080034895)" that was available last February.
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Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:00 am PostPost subject:
HedyL
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Sean never has been more forlorn.
They're jumping the good ship Steorn.
Even Crank's had enough:
"I'd be much better off
Moderating a site for porn!"
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Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:22 pm PostPost subject:
HedyL
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Those who try to thwart Nature's Laws
End up by exposing human flaws.
That man from the Irish nation
Who once touted innovation
Now desperately seeks an escape clause!
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Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:44 am PostPost subject:
HedyL
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The forum's about to go bust.
Sean's lost nearly everyone's trust.
There's so much attrition,
Only Magnatrix, Sean
And babs labor on, nonplussed.
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Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:54 am PostPost subject:
HedyL
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Of all such inventions home-spun,
The Orbo's been jolly good fun.
The jury's not in
Concerning its spin
But who can dispute its long run?
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Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:35 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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Why the forum, media attention, talks, (fake) demo, internet exposure?

Smoke and mirrors.

When creating enough chaos and noise it will take away the attention from the real issues. Like legal, finance and fraud. Remember they (Steorn) have to take care of the shareholders first. Shareholders tend to riot when results stall, unless there is enough entertainment to distract them.

Therefor we (as in all the forum posters last 3 years, the spudders, all the other blogs and the internet media) only were used by Steorn (executive board) as a distraction for the shareholders. How does it feel to be f*cked?
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Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:52 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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Steorn Ltd finally published the 2007 results.

From the CRO webpage:
“http://www.cro.ie/search/submissionse.asp?number=330508&BI=C”

------------

Balance in Euro per 31 December 2007 (31 December 2006):

Fixed assets = 440396 (from 442376)
Debtors = 52301 (from 122622)
Cash = 4140763 (from 6358045)
Short term investments = 1683213 (from 1842452)
Creditors = -/- 461431 (from -/- 8788732)

TOTAL ASSETS = 5855242 (from -/- 23237)

-------------

Cumulative share premium = 15342399 (from 5879315)
Cumulative losses = 9488394 (from 5903790)

-------------

In 2007 the negative creditors became shareholders, turning the negative TOTAL ASSETS into a positive one. The company lost 3,5 million Euro in 2007, creating a cumulative loss of almost 9,5 million. On 31 December the cash position was about 4 million. Expect the 1.7 million of 'short term investments' not to be as liquid as the term 'short term' would promise.

When the burn rate of 2007 continued in 2008 the cash position on 31 December of 2008 was only 0.5 million. That is just enough to last for two more months. So maybe February 2009 will really be the month when the curtains come down.


Edit: Of course it could have been that Steorn had a very modest spending behaviour as little as 2 million in 2008 instead of 3.5 million. In that case they still have more than a year left before the bankrupcy.
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Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:02 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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A nice plot was posted by 'thehard' on the Steorn forum. It shows a possible way out for Sean, very theatrical, which makes it even more believable.
The main assumption of this plot is that Steorn are indeed a fraud.


Ok, I skeptic here. Ocassional visitor. I just typed steorn.com for checking out the forum after a couple of months and then found all this, all of a sudden.

I am no scientist, I work in the movie business. Not in a cool job anyway, I am not one of the lucky ones so far. So my point of view after reading taking a look at a few threads and after watching the video is only a piece of fiction. I write this because I see a movie here.

If I were Sean.
If I had made a public announcement about a revolutionary technology.
If I had found investors that threw money to the project (before or after the public announcement)
If I had found out too late that it doesn't work.
If I had a constant pressure by investors, raised by the global crisis we are currently suffering...

I would fake my own death.

I would make a final video, put it on a website and put some talking heads making obscure statements that could be originaly true, but conveniently edited to make that video intriguing and formally acceptable for everyone. I would look for a university or a consortium, scientific organization or congress far far away from home. One that would accept my appearance to explain an imposible project, preferably at a 3rd world country where an accident, say murder, kidnap, terrorist attack, or plain vanishing could be as annoying as understandable. That combined with some unlucky activities at the research central to make the project non repeatable.

I wish orbo worked. I still keep a tiny little bit of hope somewhere. But the obvious thing to me is that what I just wrote is set to happen. Either that or jail. Or both, eventually.


Weak point here is the fact Steorn has a two headed executive office (CEO Sean McCarthy and COO Micheal Daly), both with near 30% of the Steorn shares. What dramatic incident could make both disappear?
Which in turn could bring up wild speculations about Sean or Micheal murdering the other guy, faking his own death and run for it Wink
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Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:42 pm PostPost subject:
Harvey
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The problem here is the money trail. Sean is worth more alive than dead and if he faked his own life he would not be able to take the funds with him without the trail exposing his new identity. Even if he converted it all to gold and sold it back in small volumes in some obscure place, the bump would be seen in the numbers. The entire process would have to be done underground and laundered in about 50 locations just to eek out a moderate living, anything above that would show up.

Scenarios:

1. Fraud. Big Oil will protect him like the secret service. What better way to publicize to the world that magnet power is impossible? Send him on tour, let him prove it to the world - he is worth so much more alive. Then at the end of the tour, when the public is well aware of the claims, bring in world class charges against the corporations and shut 'em down.

2. Reality. Sean would not fake his own death. He stands to earn billions off of licensing royalites. The world must become aware of the possibilities the new technology has to offer. Go on tour, share the technology. Big Oil will not assassinate him because it would only show that they are frightened by the technology and would have little impact on its release. Big Oil jumps on board and attempts to corner markets through independant fronts of individual puppets where they tie up exclusive commercial license under the guise of incomplete research or dangerous side effects. In the event the technology proves more lucrative than oil, they gradually make the shift toward the money side.

Either way Sean stays alive.

Cool
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Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:17 am PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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Today Steorn upgraded from delusioned enthusiasts into scam artists.
The louder you tell your truth, how unrealistic your ideas may be, the more people happen to think it must be real.
Big bluff, big balls. The next step in commercialising Orbo seems to be a 419 Euro membership. Just 2000 members and you can stay in business (slightly downsizing the staff).

They know where I live and have turned into criminals. I may keep more distance now.


Last edited by Ping1400 on Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:41 pm PostPost subject: Steorn's funny battery powered demo.
Ping1400
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The demo machine of Steorn is driven by saturating the stator ferrite toroids with such timing that the permanent rotor magnets attraction to the ferrite toroids is reduced after passing the 'sticky spot'. This is an atypical electrical motor configuration, based on reducing attraction instead of increasing attraction by powering stator coils. In theory this type of motor has no CEMF on the stator coil.

But we have other EM loss-mechanisms (posted before):

1) Ohmic losses in the toroid coil. In theory this could be reduced by using better conductors or even super-conductor. In return it could result in a partial shielding effect, where the rotor magnet is shielded from the stator ferrite (Lenz effect). This effect could be minimized by concentrating the coil windings on the opposite site of the ferrite toroid.

2) Assuming the ohmic losses in the toroid itself are negligible, the real losses are in the current source feeding the toroid. To limit current it has a resistor, the internal resistance of the source. In the steorn demo this would mean, the main thing heating up is the battery itself.

In theory this could be over-won by using a resonant circuit with a capacitor in series with the toroid (the direction of the toroid magnetization does not effect the effect on the rotor, it works both ways). This circuit would need to be synchronized with the rotor rotation, which would lead with the high resonance frequencies of normal LC circuits to the need of extreme high rpm of the rotor. This could explain the extreme rpm figures of Steorn in the early days. But high rpm -> higher losses of almost all loss mechanisms.

3) Hysteresis losses in the ferrite, due to both the magnetization by the rotor magnet as the magnetization/saturation by the current through the copper-windings. Typically ferrite hysteresis losses are about 0,5W/cm3 at 10kHz. With 3000 rpm and 2 rotor poles, the frequency is 25Hz and the losses would be 0.00125 W/cm3. With a ferrite toroid of 8 cm3 the losses are 10mW, which is about equal to the power needed to run the Steorn demo machine.

I expect the hysteresis losses to be greater with pre-magnetized ferrite (by an external magnet, like the rotor one). Although the pre-magnetization is symmetrical, the hysteresis losses when powering the stator coil are not. This extra loss mechanism cannot be neglected when saturating the (pre-magnetized) stator toroids and has no work-around.
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:29 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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First an important assumption: There is no violation of the first law of thermodynamics.

Now we can start.

Below a simplified picture of the test-rig setup used at the demo to prove over-unity. The most important component is the 'Non-linear Magnetic Coupling' which represents the rotor magnets, stator drive and pickup coil cores and all the mechanics (bearings, plastics, etc). The drive coils are represented by R1 and L1 (where L1 is not a constant), the pickup coil by R2 and L2. The fly-back diode is cross the drive coils.



The problem is a mismatch between a measured power input and a measured power output. Let's check their definition of balance:

INPUT:
Energy in is integral of I.V (Current meter A1 and Voltage meter V1).
From the discussions we hear that most of the energy in is used for heating the resistor R1, only limited energy goes into the 'Non-linear Magnetic Coupling' box.

OUTPUT:
A small amount of energy output is said to go into the kinetic friction losses.
The rest is told to be burned in the pickup coil resistance R2.

The effect Steorn want to claim is the fact they measure more energy burned in R2 than goes into the 'Non-linear Magnetic Coupling' box. In 'formula' their claim is: integral{ I1.(V1 - I1.R1) } < integral{ I2.I2.R2 }. This is what they show us on their scope traces. To make thing very clear: if this effect is real, it is still not useful, because it needs much more total input energy than it returns output energy.

What do we need to find the answer to this imbalance? Engineering or Physics?

Engineering:
So many ways of fucking up. Error in difference of two large numbers. Bad measurements. Others?

Physics:
Can we use constant R1? What about the magnetic hysteresis losses? No way. And what about a full entropy analysis? Others?

It becomes clear for me what Steorn have been (acting to be) struggling with all that time. It seems they found this phenomena they are not able or willing to understand. It is an energy balance problem, where the figures IN and OUT don't seem to match. The effect appears measurable, but whatever they tried, they (and others) were never able to turn it into a practical use. Therefor we have been shown a test/measure-rig, not an over-unity machine. They never had one.
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Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:30 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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The demo machine shown by Steorn is NOT an over unity device. It is a test-rig demonstrating an effect where the net energy balance between in and out in one machine component appears to be not zero. This effect is tiny compared with the whole energy input and losses of the machine. Therefor we need only to find a tiny error in the loss approximation of Steorn to fix the balance. And then we no longer need to find an OU explanation for the effect. CoE rulez!

Go home now.
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