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OC Magnetic PMM

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Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:01 am PostPost subject: OC Magnetic PMM
overconfident
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New PMM configuration and animation - someone please tell me why it won't work!.

My previous animation was limited to a 5x8 configuration mostly because that was as much as I could geometrically visualize. I finally took the time to draw a 8x13 configuration and animate that as well. This looks much more promising. In fact, I don't see how it can fail.

Here it is:
http://www.imgbolt.com/files/view/100653/OC13-fast.gif
http://www.imgbolt.com/files/view/100653/OC13-slow.gif

If you want a detailed analysis of what's happening, I also have an annotated image of the first frame:

http://www.imgbolt.com/files/view/100653/OC13-Frame1.gif

Is there a sticky spot? Sure, there's a couple of them. But with all the other rotational forces in this rig, I don't see anything to stop it.

If you want to model this using some more sophisticated graphical and/or engineering software, go ahead ... and post some links to your work. Or just build the damn thing.

If anyone knows of any previous attempts to do this, I sure would appreciate some references.

(copied from steorn.com)
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:10 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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It's an old idea.
And it doesn't work.
(but it makes beautiful artwork)

http://www.fdp.nu/cack_movie/JanPCack.htm

NB: the 'mistake' in your design is the fact that it needs external force to make it rotate.
NNB: i will not discuss the 'mistake', because it would be pointless

edit jan 2008:
As machine it runs, as the Alsetalokin video shows. But like any other motor it needs external power, at least to overcome the friction losses. Don't believe the OU explanation of the OC MPMM machine, it looks like we're being hoaxed Laughing


Last edited by Ping1400 on Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:11 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Ping,

As I discussed with Cloud Camper over on the Steorn forum, I was already aware of the Jan Cack device and it probably influenced my concept. There are some considerable differences, though:

1) No mechanical gearing is required. The magnets actually flip on their own.
2) The orientation of the rotating stator magnets in attraction is determined by the magnets themselves and will tend towards the optimal angle to leverage the attractive forces.
3) In repulsion, a stop or latch is used to maintain near optimal orientation to better leverage the repulsive forces.
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Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:16 pm PostPost subject:
Joh70
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found video from device build out on Lego and free magnets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg

Is it working?
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Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:43 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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Joh70 wrote:
found video from device build out on Lego and free magnets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg

Is it working?


Too many inconsistencies. Magnets are in wrong orientation to support rotation without some externally supplied forces. The video author has not responded to any questions. There "is" a click that sounds like someone flipping an electrical switch. The camera moves, possibly to hide some covert activity from view.
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Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:09 am PostPost subject: A similar concept
WaBoy
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Try this small experiment first before flipping magnets at peak attraction/repulsion –
    2 axially magnetized ring magnets
    A Permalloy or stainless steel block 1-1/2 times as wide as the diameter of the ring magnets
    A drive rod, 1/4 or less the diameter of the ring magnets
    A capped tube which inside diameter is slightly larger than the OD of the ring magnets
    A piece of Permalloy or stainless sheet stock slightly wider than the OD of the capped tube
    A spring slightly smaller in diameter than the ring magnets
The idea is to screw one ring magnet to the end of the rod and push it down the tube and through the drilled cap against the spring, using the second magnet. (The drive rod should be longer than the tube.) The Permalloy block has a round hole machined into it slightly deeper than the thickness of the second magnet and the sheet stock combined. A slot is milled across the face of the Permalloy block in such a way as to allow the sheet stock to slide across the magnet and block the magnetic field. The idea is move the sheet stock to act as a “gate,” opening and closing access to the second magnet.

Conceptually, this is quite similar to a steam cylinder, except using magnetic repulsion instead of steam pressure. The sliding sheet stock uncovers and covers the second magnet, forcing the first magnet away, then, when the second magnet is covered, allows the spring to return the first magnet to the proximity of the second magnet, and repeat the process.

The net energy gain/loss is the differential between the energy gained from the drive rod attached to the first magnet and the energy used to open/close the “gate” of the second magnet. The intention is to determine the amount of net gain – if any – and whether a permanent magnet device can meet or exceed unity. The probability is, of course, that CoE cannot be exceeded.

[A necessary comment here: many would assume the two magnets to be energy added to the system and not necessarily part of the system, like the introduction of steam to a pressure cylinder or fuel to a combustion chamber in an IC engine. I will leave that for you to determine.]

Although this is only loosely described, a person with some mechanical aptitude, experience and access to a small machine-shop can readily build this experimental device and devise a system of measuring the input energy (moving the magnet gate) and output energy (drive rod force over distance/time). An experienced machinist or mechanical engineer can, with a little thought, modify this rather simple description into an efficient, self-operating device, regulating the speed by the timing and rapidity of the gate opening/closure.

Finally, if over-unity can actually be accomplished, it’s necessary to realize that it must be accomplished by a considerable degree. A large, complex and expensive machine producing a mere half watt isn’t worth the time, money or effort. An OU device must be both scalable and approach the efficiency of an electric motor for it to have any realistic commercial value.

Go ahead and do it! I dare you! Remember to share the experience…

[A few suggestions – You can use less expensive stainless steel, but find an alloy that is as close to magnetic neutral as possible. The ideal head and gate material is mu-metal, but it’s quite expensive and requires re-annealing after machining to be effective. Cams/rocker-arms are quicker than gears and solenoids are quicker yet. Speed of gate opening and closure is of paramount importance for a properly functioning device. And, above all, draw engineering sketches and take photos/videos for yourself!]
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Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:32 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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WaBoy,

I think you have an interesting experiment here, but you should post it in its own thread. Your idea is considerably different from mine.

I have had an insight that I expect to develop. I started this thread in order to share that concept with others, hoping someone with more experimantal ability than me might actually see what I have seen and try to build it. That hasn't happened, so it looks like I will have to build it myself. It's going to take me some time. I have a number of other, simpler experiments I wish to perform first, before I invest too much time and money in the one I illustrated above.

I'm afraid I am not a very good candidate to perform your experiment. It's hard enough just doing my own.

Best of luck,
Overconfident
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Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:47 am PostPost subject:
WaBoy
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All right, but to answer your original question ("Why doesn't this work?") a little less gently, read here:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm#cheng The mechanism is only slightly different (there are quite a few variations), but the results are the same.

So, even assuming a zero friction mechanism, the actual "work" (f=ma) done by the magnets remains zero - nothing has occurred, there are no changes, the mechanism eventually runs down for a number of reasons - some simple and some quite complicated. You aren't the first to be led down this garden path, nor are you likely to be the last, but it can be a little bit exciting. Especially when someone claims to have done the experiment successfully - like Steorn or even John Worrell Keeley back in the late 1800s! You might even want to look up the "Cycclone" (yep, that's the spelling) magnetic engine that is claimed to work just as you've described. The guy made over a million $AUD from investors before he landed in jail for fraud.

However, you personally need to take your thought experiment to the physical experiment level, regardless of your busy-ness. First, you'll learn at first hand that it doesn't work and, second, you'll eventually figure out why without the necessity of a degree in physics.

In the meantime, enjoy the permanent magnet experiments! They're fun to do, expecially if you're a model builder, and they generally lead to other equally fascinating experiments - like Stirling engines and other external heat engines that actually do work.
Very Happy
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Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:37 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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WaBoy,

I can't seem to find any documentation that describes the magnetic configuration used by the Cycclone motor. Do you have any references? If they are in fact using a configuration like I visualized, then I would be very interested.

Regarding the document you refer to at the Museum of Unworkable Devices, it is nothing like my concept. The closest thing I have seen there is the flip motor, http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/flipmag.htm and there are significant differences.

Thank you for your input.
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Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:07 am PostPost subject:
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OC,

If you recall it was mentioned that there was more than one plane being used in the Orbo. What I am saying is even if you build this and it fails, it means you might need to build another on the same axle. To be more clear, two of your devices one in front of the other, (maybe slightly different configurations), driving the same axle. Idea
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Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:37 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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g4macdad,
Actually, I first visualized this working in 2 separate planes, 1 for rotor rotation relative to the stator and a separate plane for rotating the individual magnets with respect to each other. Then, later I realized I could simplify things a bit by using diametrically magnetized disc magnets and let them rotate in the same plane as disc rotation.

There are actually several different axes for rotation in this device, with varying magnetic field interaction. I don't think I need to mount several of them on a shaft, although adding more would probably be a good way to scale up for greater power output.
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Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:53 pm PostPost subject:
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overconfident wrote:
g4macdad,
Actually, I first visualized this working in 2 separate planes, 1 for rotor rotation relative to the stator and a separate plane for rotating the individual magnets with respect to each other. Then, later I realized I could simplify things a bit by using diametrically magnetized disc magnets and let them rotate in the same plane as disc rotation.

There are actually several different axes for rotation in this device, with varying magnetic field interaction. I don't think I need to mount several of them on a shaft, although adding more would probably be a good way to scale up for greater power output.


Well, I know there are concerns about "sticky spots" and I was thinking another slightly different configuration on a parallel plane could assist in overcoming these(sticky spots). I hope your experiment is successful without my input anyway. Wink
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Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 am PostPost subject:
overconfident
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g4macdad,

Thanks for your thoughts and your encouragement. I'm not ruling out other ideas, I just want to build my vision first and see what it does. If it doesn't work out, I may try a few other variations before I give up. I'll keep your ideas in mind.

Thanks.
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Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:14 pm PostPost subject:
overconfident
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At one time I thought there might actually be real development and synergy here. I started copying my ideas and information here in the hope that would eventually happen. I eventually quit due to the apparent lack of interest.

I'm outta here. Have fun!
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