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And another conspiracy theory.

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Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:30 pm PostPost subject: And another conspiracy theory.
exco
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We only have the leprachaun's word for it that there actually IS a jury.

What if they simply don't exist? The names have not been announced, and it is entirely possible that this shadowy crew are figments of the chief lep's imagination.

Of course, it's easy to shoot this particular conspiracy down in flames. Simply publish the names of the panel? The secrecy can hardly be in order to keep them being pestered by the worlds press. Nobody seems to give a damn except the believers of course.
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Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:54 pm PostPost subject:
jwk
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As much as Sean's word and a leprachaun's may have in common i don't think going down the road of general racial insults is the way to go.

The jury however i believe exists. At least a certain number anyway. Let's face it, they have not yet seen a device and don't seem unhappy about this so i would imagine it would not be beyond Sean's skill's to just keep them hanging on.

There was a thread over on the steorn forum recently asking why steorn had not simply used a test lab or 2...or.....17 etc.

Cost seemed to be an accepted reason. I dispute this.

If each jury member will pick up 6k, and i believe there are 21 members ?

126000 +

The original advert for jury members

75000 +

Costs inc Sean's travels

lets assume 1K per member for costs inc Sean's visit's etc.
21K

Cost of this Jury = 222000, as a very conservative estimate.


Could a scientific review have been made for less than this ?

Could an independent lab tested and reported less than this ?


erm...yes. And quicker too.
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Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:29 pm PostPost subject:
exco
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Well, given the man's record of dissembly, equivocation, prevarication and general dodginess, I would not be at all surprised if no jury existed.

It would certainly explain their continued silence.
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:23 am PostPost subject:
Thicket
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I was always of the opinion that a jury existed. Even if Steorn was a scam, it would make no sense to say there was a jury when there actually wasn't.

My conviction on the existence of the jury is faltering somewhat. I suspect that there WAS a jury, and the remnants probably still exist. However, Steorn is extremely sloppy in how they organize things. They start off fine, but the mercurial mind of Sean starts to wander and plans fizzle and fade. Sean is a classic example of someone with grand ideas that he initiates with flare and vigour, but then lets them die when he becomes disinterested and bored.
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:04 pm PostPost subject:
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Wait

Last edited by exco on Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:06 pm PostPost subject:
exco
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Does anyone know a single member?

I seem to recall some joker announcing that he had been asked, but other committments made it impossible for him to take part or something. But as for actual names of actual members I don't believe there are any.

As to why pretend there is a jury when there isn't, there is always the continued payment for yet more months of a no doubt very comfortable salary. In other words, delaying tactics.
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:03 pm PostPost subject:
Thicket
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I think that Jeff Bechtold is/was a jury member, although I don't recall this being absolutely confirmed.

Dr. Doug Natelson was invited but declined.
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Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:29 pm PostPost subject:
exco
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It would be nice to have confirmation of the jury's existence. Their continued silence was recently being touted on the steorn forum as evidence that the company really did have perpetual motion. I think my theory is far more likely though.
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Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:08 pm PostPost subject:
Thicket
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The juries silence was touted as being evidence that Steorn had a free-energy device back in January 2007. The thread was recently resurrected by skeptics for ridicule. The most obvious reason to ridicule the thread was that the Jury hadn't seen the Steorn device up to April (confirmed by Sean McCarthy) and probably past that point. It's quite possible that the Jury hasn't seen the device yet. Indeed, they may never see it.

It's quite entertaining to resurrect threads from fanatical believers with their outlandish analysis of Steorn's imminent success. Many months go by, and nothing happens. It makes them look silly.
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Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:26 pm PostPost subject:
exco
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Well, in a couple of weeks it will be july and the great unveiling will take place.

What's the betting that the 'unveiling' will consist mainly of a video of the swivel-eyed Chief Leprachaun talking a blue streak on a video, and buggerall of substance!
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Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:50 am PostPost subject:
Thicket
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I agree that there will be buggerall of substance.

I don't think Steorn can get away with only showing a video. It's easy to throw together a moving device with magnets. There are dozens if not hundreds on YouTube. With millions in investor money, a few thousand bucks spent on a shiny gadget shouldn't be a problem. None of the YouTube devices are overunity, but that makes little difference to the gullible believers.

Steorn is underplaying the demonstration. With the exception of forum regulars and banned outcasts, I think that the demonstration will make as many waves as a grain of sand tossed into a pond.
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Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:48 am PostPost subject:
drichardson
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I doubt it will be a video -- even the most die-hard believer would question that!

While I'm here; What happened to all our s[k|c]eptics?
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Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:34 pm PostPost subject:
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Oh, I am still loitering!

I am interested to see what "rabbit" they pull out of this hat. I agree it can't be a video. It seems to me that they have two problems - DrMike and the Demo.

1) They cancel DrMike and the demo. It will hurt their credibility but die-hard supportes/investors will continue to believe. Such is better than having a demo that is blaltantly not OU.

2) DrMike says it is not OU. Steorn respond by saying that DrMike is wrong and doesn't have the skills / tools to make a correct call. They do the demo anyway and some mechanical device rotates for 10 days.

3) DrMike tests it and they do the demo. It fails on both counts. But they have an reason for the failure which their supporters/investors accept.

4) DrMike gives it the thumbs up and the demo succeeds.

Likelyhood:

Number 2).
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Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:50 pm PostPost subject:
Thicket
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drichardson wrote:
While I'm here; What happened to all our s[k|c]eptics?


I think that the s[k|c]eptics are still around. It's a bore talking about nothing new. Hopefully there'll be a flurry of activity during the July demonstration.

Currently, Steorn is sliding into a quagmire of anonymity in the company of hundreds of other 'free-energy' schemes.

Perhaps Steorn continues to be successful in extracting money from investors.
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Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:39 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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I believe that there IS a jury.
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Last edited by alsetalokin on Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:42 pm PostPost subject:
exco
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The phrase:

"and a lot of experience in the "free-energy" field"

effectively destroys the guy's reputation as far as I'm concerned. As Free energy doesn't exist, it's pretty hard to get any experience in it, let alone a lot!
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Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:34 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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exco wrote:
The phrase:

"and a lot of experience in the "free-energy" field"

effectively destroys the guy's reputation as far as I'm concerned. As Free energy doesn't exist, it's pretty hard to get any experience in it, let alone a lot!


There are some people out there with a lot of experience debunking free energy scams. I think that counts as 'experience in the free-energy field' too, with a twist.

What bothers me is the fact that Alsetalokin, a recognized skeptic, comes with this news on a for Steorn very strategic moment. If I were the Steorn marketing spindoctor it's these kind of news items that I would be spreading right now (in a most subtile way). I've seen his post for some days now, thinking 'why now' and 'why here'.
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Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:22 am PostPost subject:
Magnatrix
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why not? Rolling Eyes

you said it yourself, he's a skeptic, not a cynic
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Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:02 pm PostPost subject:
exco
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I'm sorry, but this just won't wash!

You only need commonsense to debunk perpetual motion machines. As none of them actually work, simply saying 'put up or shut up' is suficient to debunk them.

It's a bit like claiming expertise in debunking flat earthers.

"a lot of experience in the free-energy field" is pure pretentious garbage.
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Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:18 pm PostPost subject:
Ping1400
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exco wrote:
You only need commonsense to debunk perpetual motion machines. As none of them actually work, simply saying 'put up or shut up' is suficient to debunk them.

"a lot of experience in the free-energy field" is pure pretentious garbage.


I think you have a point here.

Still it seems from historical examples that magicians are better in debunking hoaxes than scientists, because of their experience in fooling the public. Maybe it's not about "experience in the free-energy field", it's more about experience in exposing scams in general.
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Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:31 pm PostPost subject:
alsetalokin
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Let's see--a number of points to be addressed.
From the experience I have accumulated, my position is clear: Steorn must almost certainly be wrong about their claim, for whatever reason, be it fraud, error, or some unfathomable third type of reason.
And, actually, it can be a bit complicated to debunk some types of free-energy devices. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing so darn many of them on Youtube! Since many of the devices and systems (like certain "cold-fusion" cells, for example) produce small amounts of apparent excess energy, in rather unusual and hard-to-duplicate conditions, real tests of some of these devices may require fabrication and calibration of new types of equipment, expensive and extensive series of control experimentation, travel expenses for the principal researchers involved, and etc. I have detailed some examples of what I mean in other posts.
exco is right that a PMM would probably be easy to debunk; unfortunately I have never been presented with one--because, as exco says, they don't actually work.
Far more common are the devices that are claimed to produce slight increments in energy, slight decrements in weight or mass, slight anomalous thrusts, etc. and these claims are harder to deal with fairly.
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Last edited by alsetalokin on Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:40 pm PostPost subject:
exco
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The key sentence in your post is:

"Unfortunately and quite dissappointingly, none of the projects we examined or funded produced positive results."

It is neither 'unfortunate' nor 'disapointing'. It is exactly what boring conventional physics would predict. That someone with more money than sense ever expected to get any positive results does not surprise me in the slightest. There are many people with wodges of spare cash to burn.

But a 'serious' scientist who panders to this belief is, in my opinion, as morally suspect as the people who claim to have invented perpetual motion machines. That you have made a good living out of it does not prove a damn thing scientifically.

You attempt to blur the issue by talking about cold fusion. As everyone knows, there is energy available in fusing hydrogen into helium. This is undisputed. The matter is not one of 'free' energy, but more to do with 'subatomic engineering', and whether it can be made to work or not. This is a very different matter from perpetual motion - or energy from nowhere even in the minutest quantities, and you are being less than scrupulous in pretending that they are the same thing.

Whether it's free energy, antigravity, or any other science fiction type claims, the test is extremely simple. Two words.

Show me.

Nobody has and nobody will.

And I neither know nor care whether you are a stooge for steorn, which is why I didn't make the accusation.
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Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:30 pm PostPost subject:
WaBoy
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@exco

Do you never tire of ad hominem attacks?
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Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:52 pm PostPost subject:
exco
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Do you never tire of ad hominem attacks?

Well, are they any worse than the ad-hominem defence that prompts them?
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